UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

1st503rdsgt · by **1st503rdsgt** » 09 Sep 2011, 05:42

Ok Spaz, you've made your point and convinced me that the F-35C MIGHT be slightly easier to land on a carrier deck than the Hornet. That still doesn't change the fact that CATOBAR ops are extremely challenging and more capital intensive when compared to running a STOVL carrier, and frankly, I question Britain's political commitment to pull this off. I thought the idea was to have two carriers in order to ensure that at least one would be combat ready at all times. The switch from B to C models of the F-35 has ensured that the first ship will be thoroughly useless by 60,000 ton standards until modifications (adding about another 1/3 to the ship's total cost) are completed. So far, I haven't heard of any real plan or timetable to accomplish this, and my guess is that the thing will be left to rot dockside after a few patrols as an overpriced helicopter barge for propriety's sake. Oh well, maybe Australia or Japan will buy the ship and put it to proper use with F-35Bs.

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 09 Sep 2011, 09:22

1st503rdsgt we are in agreement about the Brits going back to STOVL but perhaps we have differences about the F-35C conventional carrier landing issues. The F-35C is going to be a lot easier to deck land day/night - not just 'slightly easier' as you put it. As you know from your PBS 'Carrier' TV series watching, day deck landings (pilots say) are mostly easy and a lot of fun. Sure the TV show made drama often where there was none and for sure the day the long rolling Pacific swells were evident - (s)well that can make deck landings difficult at any time. BUT it was the night time that was scary (at any time) for all. Even the veterans are careful about any night time ops and to see the CO take over the junior pilot duties at night, in those conditions, is what senior pilots are for. Newbies cannot learn if they die in an environment IF they do not have the experiece to cope with it.

After that long winded sentence I get to my point. As seen on this thread:

http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNph ... ght#202528
{SCROLL DOWN} for

"So now night landings on carriers are fully enabled. We show this stuff to Navy pilots and they’re just awestruck that they can even see the horizon, let alone the boat out there and the wake." An HUGE difference - believe you me.

The 'night vision view' is revolutionary for F-35C night time carrier ops. I would have to hold your hand to take you out to sea on a typical black moonless night without any visible horizon to carrier deck land. As many pilots state quite unashamedly 'it is no joke'. Here is a link to a recent onesuch: http://hamptonroads.com/2008/09/one-tin ... g-case-olf Sadly this link does not now work. I'll attempt to recover the .FLV video to attach here. Here is a precis: "Hornet Pilot Talks about Night Carrier Landings ABOARD USS THEODORE ROOSEVELT Sep 2008" (it may be findable elsewhere on the interscrabble). 8Mb .WMV video now attached.

An aside for a giggle:
Landing on a carrier in a sand storm: “Persian Gulf in 2003”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvMqMIG81gw

EO/DAS trickery screenshot below

stereospace · by **stereospace** » 09 Sep 2011, 18:43

Night Carrier Approach and Landing:

http://youtu.be/vZQ9pS1b4R4

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 09 Sep 2011, 22:07

Thanks stereospace. Excellent example of a night carrier landing video. Now imagine same same with the EO/DAS view as seen above in the F-35C. PHEW! Much more better. OK?

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 09 Sep 2011, 22:33

T-45C Goshawk Catapult and Arrest Video from HelmetCam - daytime:

Lap Around The Boat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw4dZ2bJnGI
_______________

VFA-195 "Pitching deck"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Hw0Hks3 ... re=related

"aded by paraaviator on Feb 5, 2008
The USS Kittyhawk pitching greatly."

popcorn · by **popcorn** » 10 Sep 2011, 00:38

stereospace wrote:Night Carrier Approach and Landing:

http://youtu.be/vZQ9pS1b4R4

Riveting video. Now throw in rough seas and rain. Is that considered a "blacked out" carrier or would there even be any light visible in an actual combat scenario?

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 10 Sep 2011, 00:57

popcorn, perhaps you missed this 'terrifying day ride video' above?:

Landing on a carrier in a sand storm: “Persian Gulf in 2003”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvMqMIG81gw

popcorn, a night carrier landing is difficult enough without throwing in 'rough seas and rain'. There is an automatic landing option remember but seldom used because pilots like to do manual landings from at least the last quarter mile and I'm told that 'fully auto landings' are very rough to experience but often the last resort for a very tired pilot after a long multi-hour night mission. These fully auto landings are not counted as 'deck landings' AFAIK.

I think the night approach mentions the 'red light' on deck for the deck crew and taxiing pilot to see stuff (and not destroy their 'night vision' which will take about half an hour to come back if they go below to 'white light' so at least one deck below is also 'red lit' only). Otherwise 'moonlighting' is used to some extent which may or may not affect deck crew (I have not been on an USN carrier at night only the RAN's HMAS Melbourne).

The carrier has brightish navigation lights which are dimmed somewhat for night carrier ops. Combat scenarios could be anything but remember the deck crew need to see stuff and the carrier escorts probably need to see dim lights in 'no emission' scenarios.

For my purposes to illustrate the ease of night carrier landings - Hornet compared to Lightning II - it is the 'night vision' possible for F-35C via EO/DAS. Having a horizon and being able to see the ship is amazingly revolutionary at night as one can see from the otherwise 'completely black' videos. From about 3/4 of a mile one can see the deck edge lighting and the drop centreline lights.

[I'm told/read that today the USN pilots can see IFLOLS easily from closer than 1.5NM with the LRLS Long Range Lineup System making visual approaches at night (via an instrument approach - not via a day visual circuit) a lot easier.

Many years ago (1971-2) I did A4G Skyhawk night approaches via a CCA (GCA for carriers - Ground/Carrier Control Radar). There was no other landing aid except LSO and the CCA controller perhaps giving a few extra radio calls as need be from his usual cutoff point at 1NM at 1,000 feet or below descending 'on glidepath on centreline - look ahead and call the ball'. Yeah right.

All that could be seen was the extremely bright mirror lights with no definition possible at that distance and no centreline at all. Keeping one's nerve (with extra CCA radio call probably) continuing on to 3/4 of a NM or less one could then differentiate the 'meatball in the mirror with datum lights' and then discern the centreline. It is very difficult to remain on centreline without the horizon visible. The deck is moving away to the right constantly due to angle deck, so the approaching aircraft has to 'nibble' to the right constantly to stay on centreline.

I'll stress again: having that EO/DAS night view is so helpful it cannot be praised enough IMHO.

I'll add a GEOGENism 'Godspeed the F-35C night vision thing' HMDS development. :-)

stereospace · by **stereospace** » 10 Sep 2011, 01:45

spazsinbad wrote:Thanks stereospace. Excellent example of a night carrier landing video. Now imagine same same with the EO/DAS view as seen above in the F-35C. PHEW! Much more better. OK?

No problem. Thanks for all the informative and fascinating posts and replies you put up!

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 10 Sep 2011, 01:54

'stereospace' Thanks. No worries. There is a lot about naval aviation (not only of the A4G era - but USN up to today) at the second and third URLs in my sig. The first URL 'a4ghistory.com' is probably dead - has been dead for over one month now with no replies from host about future situation.

Because the main free download website is down I will work on adding more PDFs to this SkyDrive site:

http://alturl.com/4a4ko
SameSame
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=cbcd63d6 ... 07E6%21116

Look in the 'My Documents' folder in a day or two for at least one or more 'Carrier Approach Details' PDFs (because file size limited to 100Mbs this can be tricky to excerpt material from a 4.4GB PDF otherwise found on this SkyDrive site).
__________

I guess my 'sig' should be updated to include this URL for A4G stuff including a Video DVD here:

http://www.adf-history.com/adf/?cat=7
&
http://www.adf-history.com/adf/?page_id=10
______________

Another 'bits & pieces' website: http://www.gamefront.com/files/user/SpazSinbad

My Favourite video 38Mb of A4G day deck ops:

http://www.gamefront.com/files/17362545 ... Q_TOOL_wmv

stereospace · by **stereospace** » 10 Sep 2011, 01:58

Did somebody say rough seas? PBS: Carrier - Landing on a Pitching Deck Pt. 1

http://youtu.be/4gGMI8d3vLs

Part 2 will be right there. That's the scary one.

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 10 Sep 2011, 02:00

SADLY PBS videos unviewable in Oz and probably elsewhere other than USofA (however I have the DVDs).

stereospace · by **stereospace** » 10 Sep 2011, 02:24

I got the impression that the guy piloting that last tanker down was, in the estimation of his crew mates, the best pilot aboard. There was no one left to back him up, he either got in or died trying. He landed on his first attempt.

Nothing like a combination of skill and experience to carry the day.

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 10 Sep 2011, 02:28

Not being able to see the videos mentioned - although having seen the CARRIER PBS series some time ago now on DVD - I recall as mentioned earlier that the CO of the squadron took the sortie at night in difficult conditions from the new pilot - which is a good thing. Is this the segment of which you speak?

stereospace · by **stereospace** » 10 Sep 2011, 02:32

spazsinbad wrote:SADLY PBS videos unviewable in Oz and probably elsewhere other than USofA (however I have the DVDs).

What do you mean unviewable? Are they blocked on youtube or what?

Maybe the problem is that when a video is posted above the equator in North America, and then it's viewed below the equator, in Oz, the signal is upside down and no longer works. Just speculating. :roll:

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 10 Sep 2011, 02:34

Probably. I'll post a screenshot of what I see...

Anyway here is a Utubby Fav. I think the AC/DC soundtrack has been changed though (can't tell now) but at least it shows the deck moving onboard HMAS Melbourne. A4G Super8 film taken late 1970s by Bob Stumpf USN (exchange) who went on to be CO Hornet Blue Angels later.

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=ben ... O0vgV1h7r4