UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

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madrat

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Unread post22 Jul 2020, 00:11

Shouldn't SPEAR give them some moving target abilities?
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weasel1962

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Unread post22 Jul 2020, 01:33

Yup Spear will have moving target capability.

Also, just a question of time before legacy capabilities are also integrated. If Harpoon is integrated, that immediately gives the F-35 a whole lot of additional standoff firepower because the AGM-84s are already in service in significant numbers. Why waste 'em?

Not only that, its weight is about that of a quad-packed BRU which means potentially 4 external harps on Bees (followed by JSM).

Has anyone mention that MQ-25s are perfect for the QEs....
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Unread post22 Jul 2020, 01:42

weasel1962 wrote:...Has anyone mention that MQ-25s are perfect for the QEs....

No one mentioned it unless the STINGRAY MQ-25 is operated from land/shore runways. Is that what you mean? Obviously the USMC F-35B mob will bring a lot of stuff with them including the V-22 which may or may not have air refuelling soon.
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Unread post22 Jul 2020, 02:17

dtmdragon wrote:
squirrelshoes wrote:I wonder what their maritime strike options would be on QE with their Bees.

I know the weapon set is supposed to expand later in the 2020s but right now I'm having trouble coming up with anything but LGBs.


Paveway IV with the tactical penetrator warhead (added for
UK F-35B IOC) has the same weapons effect as the 2000lb class BLU-109/B used in the Paveway III GBU-24 and GBU-27. I imagine two of those that would be fairly effective against a ship provided the F-35B LO/ stealth ability allowed it to be close enough to laser designate the ship?


weasel1962 wrote:If Harpoon is integrated, that immediately gives the F-35 a whole lot of additional standoff firepower because the AGM-84s are already in service in significant numbers. Why waste 'em?


ASuW missiles aren't in vogue in the RN (mostly due to lack of £££). Currently only some RN ships carry ancient versions of Harpoon, which was supposed to be retired but got a little boost in service life recently. UK currently does not have AShMs for their P-8 fleet either, and I don't have high hopes for them getting it soon. The Harpoon replacement is a joint venture with the French, the FCASW aka Perseus, scheduled to come about around 2030. Will it be integrated into F-35 is another question, as French Navy has no vested interest in it, so this leaves Royal Navy (which has no money) or MBDA (may be risky) to pick up the bill for integration. It's "stiff upper lip, make do with what you have" until 2030 if not later. The weapon for the lighter targets (FASGW Light aka Martlet) is still in the final stages of testing. FASGW Heavy aka Sea Venom is delayed till 2024 for now.

I am not sure top-notch ASuW weapons for the fleet or FAA are a priority. Last time Britain fought alone all it took to incapacitate adversary navy was a single torpedo attack. LGBs are "good enough" for second tier enemies, and RN won't be taking on first tier surface combatants alone anyway.

savetheroyalnavy.org wrote:the RN will do it has always done when called upon – improvise and make the best of what assets it has available at the time.

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/a-pale ... er-strike/
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Corsair1963

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Unread post22 Jul 2020, 02:42

hythelday wrote:
savetheroyalnavy.org wrote:the RN will do it has always done when called upon – improvise and make the best of what assets it has available at the time.


https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/a-pale ... er-strike/



This is why I think it maybe a good idea. To base one of the Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers in Australia. This would help pay for much of the expenses of the aforementioned. While, bolstering the defenses of Australia/New Zealand. Which, could be a win-win for all involved....(think about it)

Of course this depends on Australia and lessor extent New Zealand. Paying for the Port Facilities, Infrastructure, Housing, etc. In order to support the Royal Navy Aircraft Carrier and everything that goes along with it...
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Corsair1963

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Unread post22 Jul 2020, 02:47

spazsinbad wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:...Has anyone mention that MQ-25s are perfect for the QEs....

No one mentioned it unless the STINGRAY MQ-25 is operated from land/shore runways. Is that what you mean? Obviously the USMC F-35B mob will bring a lot of stuff with them including the V-22 which may or may not have air refuelling soon.



Yes, what the QEC need is the V-22 Osprey. Which, could be used in the Tanker, COD, and AEW&C Roles. Hell, you could operate a common pool of aircraft. As the aforementioned are plug and play.....
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Unread post08 Sep 2020, 16:06

USMC F-35s arrive in UK ahead of QE embarkation
08 Sep 2020 Gareth Jennings

"...Ten F-35Bs from Marine Fighter Attack Squadron (VMFA) 211 of the 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing (MAW) at Marine Corps Air Station (MCAS) Yuma, Arizona, arrived at Royal Air Force (RAF) Marham in England on 3 September, the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) announced. https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/us ... af-marham/

“VMFA-211 will conduct synthetic training in the purpose-built simulators at RAF Marham to familiarise themselves with the local airspace and procedures before they take to the Norfolk skies to fly training sorties alongside 617 Squadron in preparation for their embarkation with the [Queen Elizabeth] carrier later this month. They will also be participating in Exercise ‘Point Blank’ with their [US military] colleagues from local base RAF Lakenheath along with other NATO partners,” the MoD said.

As noted by the MoD, once on board Queen Elizabeth both VMFA-211 and 617 Squadron will conduct carrier qualification training to ensure all pilots are proficient to operate from the ship during both day and night. With the training complete the aircraft will then conduct Exercise ‘Joint Warrior’ from Queen Elizabeth , after which both squadrons will return to RAF Marham where they will then prepare to take part in Exercise ‘Crimson Warrior’."

Photos: https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org ... 5660f.jpeg & https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org ... 43044.jpeg & https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org ... 3f958.jpeg

Source: https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... mbarkation
Attachments
10usmcF-35BsMARHAMsep2020.jpg
F-35BusmcRAFmarhamSep2020.jpg
F-35BusmcRAFmarhamSep'20.jpg
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madrat

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Unread post08 Sep 2020, 17:09

spazsinbad wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:...Has anyone mention that MQ-25s are perfect for the QEs....

No one mentioned it unless the STINGRAY MQ-25 is operated from land/shore runways. Is that what you mean? Obviously the USMC F-35B mob will bring a lot of stuff with them including the V-22 which may or may not have air refuelling soon.


We can strap on a rocket booster and fly them off rails. When they have a glitch it should make for some pretty pyrotechnics.
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Unread post08 Sep 2020, 21:40

spazsinbad wrote:
USMC F-35s arrive in UK ahead of QE embarkation
08 Sep 2020 Gareth Jennings

Source: https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... mbarkation


I have this insane hope that, with the collective experience between the Marines and the RN with the B's operating on QE2, SRVL parameters may be one day be "tightened up" enough to consider trying them on Wasp and America class ships. The rollout on touchdown seems very short in the videos and the potential gain in bringback seems really meaningful. Is it completely out of the question? I've dug through the SRVL thread and couldn't find anything other than straight mention that it's not happening. Only commenting about it on this thread because of your article reference, Spaz, which is a great read as always. :)
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Unread post08 Sep 2020, 22:07

The JANES article does not mention SRVL. NOBODY is allowed SRVLing until more tests are conducted aboard PoW after that a decision will be made IF line pilots can do the SRVL. At moment IIRC consensus was the US flat decks are too narrow for such SRVLs. Once upon a time some critics were insisting the SRVL touch down was TOO FAST. However a matrix of weather/sea state/wind direction/aircraft weights that will give the SRVL approach speed & allow it to occur.

OK perhaps the FULL ARTICLE of JANE mentions SRVLing however I am not a subscriber so I see only the NON-subscription text. IF you can read the FULL ARTICLE please put the missing article SRVL? or other text here for all to read THANKS.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post09 Sep 2020, 04:40

It will be interesting to see. If, the USMC V-22 Ospreys assigned to the HMS Queen Elizabeth. Will be equipped for mid air refueling....
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Unread post09 Sep 2020, 14:15

Corsair1963 wrote:It will be interesting to see. If, the USMC V-22 Ospreys assigned to the HMS Queen Elizabeth. Will be equipped for mid air refueling....


Funding for the V-22 Aerial Refueling System was paused in FY2020 and is likely to remain paused for the next few years:

“OSIP 008-18 was established for the MV-22 Aerial Refueling System (VARS) Capability. The VARS is an initiative which would deliver the capability to aerial refuel F/A-18, F-35, AV-8B, V-22 and CH-53E aircraft from the V-22. Funding for this OSIP has been removed from this budget in FY 2020 through the Future Years Defense Plan (FYDP) due to Marine Corps reprioritization.”
Page 3 of 49 of https://apps.dtic.mil/procurement/Y2021 ... B_2021.pdf


“The MV-22 Aerial Refueling system effort has been paused starting in FY 2020. Funds for this effort in FY 2020 through the FYDP have been removed from this budget exhibit. FY 2019 funding remaining in this OSIP was executed for support for the effort prior to the pause.”
Page 26 of 49 of the same document.
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Unread post09 Sep 2020, 14:53

Thanks for that info. The USMC appears to go through big changes at moment. Meanwhile I had another thought (yeah who'da thunk) via 'quicksilver' that USMC flat decks are not as stable as the CVFs especially in the rolling plane for SRVLs.
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Unread post09 Sep 2020, 17:58

Although the LHA/LHD is narrower, which definitely has an impact, I think the US position on the SVRL stems more from the role of the aircraft and the LHA/LHD in the US versus in the UK. Pretty much the same reason the USN ships don't have one of those funny looking ski jump things at the pointy end.

In the UK, the carriers are, well, carriers. There main aircraft is the F-35B and they do aircraft carrier things. Other aircraft support the F-35Bs. That is not true of the USN ships. The LHA/LHD is to support vertical assault and the F-35Bs support that, so number of spots for helos and tilt-rotors to land and take off is critical. A VL only impacts one spot. Even in the best of cases, a SRVL probably impacts 2 or 3. Similarly, a ski jump ramp takes up a spot as well.

So while the Ski Jump will enhance the take off and the SRVL will increase bring back capacity, they both do it at the expense of the LHA/LHDs primary mission. So more take-off or bring back weight is worth it for the UK but not for the US.

It would be interesting what the USN/USMC position would be if the LHA/LHD were focused primarily on being "Lightning Carriers".
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Unread post09 Sep 2020, 18:18

If an LHA can clear a deck for a launch, they can do so for recoveries that would be the exception rather than the norm.

As spaz pointed out above, the physical confines of the landing area — laterally — combined with much less roll stability (wrt CVF or CVN) will be the limfacs for routine use of those landings aboard LHA/D. Could they do so as an emergency recovery? Perhaps, but that would really sporty stuff.
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