UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

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squirrelshoes

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Unread post07 Jul 2020, 23:42

I wonder what their maritime strike options would be on QE with their Bees.

I know the weapon set is supposed to expand later in the 2020s but right now I'm having trouble coming up with anything but LGBs.
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talkitron

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Unread post08 Jul 2020, 00:20

Somewhere in block 4, the UK F-35Bs will support SPEAR 3 in the internal bays. SPEAR 3 is the UK alternative to the US SDBII, renamed StormBreaker.

posting.php?mode=reply&f=58&t=15969

I bet you SPEAR 3 will end up costing more than StormBreaker and no one outside the UK will adopt it, unless they are flying the Typhoon or something and need to buy UK weapons.
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steve2267

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Unread post08 Jul 2020, 01:32

"maritime strike options" .... SPEAR3... isn't that a 250lb class weapon? Is that really a threat to modern ship-of-the-line warships?
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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madrat

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Unread post08 Jul 2020, 03:42

steve2267 wrote:"maritime strike options" .... SPEAR3... isn't that a 250lb class weapon? Is that really a threat to modern ship-of-the-line warships?


Speedboats
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old_rn

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Unread post08 Jul 2020, 08:53

I believe people underestimate the impact of modern target guidance with weapons such as Spear 3. As I understand the system allows very specific impact points, in the case of MBTs Brimstone has been able to reliably impact the turrent ring. So against a frigate/destroyer sized target multiple Spear 3 hits on the radars and weapon launchers would be a very much as mission kill. Even against an aircraft carrier if the Spear 3 could hit the catapault and arrester systems it would be a challenge?

the impact of two Shrike missiles on USS Worden in April 1968 (friendly fire accident) put the ship fully out of action and she had to withdraw for repairs. The Shrike was an anti-radar variant of the Sparrow with a warhead less than Spear 3
Last edited by old_rn on 08 Jul 2020, 09:07, edited 1 time in total.
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weasel1962

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Unread post08 Jul 2020, 09:02

Slight problem since chinese (and the Kutz) CVs don't currently use cats. Next one might though.

Performance of sea skuas (300+lbs) can be indicative of how the spear 3 performs. 4 fired at the 800 ton ARA Alférez Sobral, couldn't sink it. However 1991 performance seemed a lot better.

I think its safer to bank on somebody putting a couple of decent ASMs on the external pylons. JSM, JSOW-ER even older harps comes to mind. Too bad the storm shadow integration got canned. Just a question of someone funding the integration. Not sure if Japan is doing that to their Bees with the JSM buy.
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squirrelshoes

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Unread post08 Jul 2020, 12:35

old_rn wrote:The Shrike was an anti-radar variant of the Sparrow with a warhead less than Spear 3

Are you sure on this?

Shrike had a 150 lb warhead. I don't know the size of the warhead in Spear3 but the entire missile is supposed to be less than 220 lbs and obviously that includes engine, fuel, wing-kit, seeker, frame. I'm pretty skeptical that missile has a warhead of more than 150 lbs, hell SDB2 only has a 104 lb warhead and it's a glide bomb of similar dimensions to Spear 3.
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old_rn

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Unread post08 Jul 2020, 12:46

Apologies, I had looked at the fact that it used Sparrow basis and assumed it had a similar warhead. Even so the impact of precisely placed warhead on a modern warship will be more dramatic than most people imagine.
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marauder2048

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Unread post08 Jul 2020, 21:08

old_rn wrote:Apologies, I had looked at the fact that it used Sparrow basis and assumed it had a similar warhead. Even so the impact of precisely placed warhead on a modern warship will be more dramatic than most people imagine.


This is oft-repeated but if you look at modern damage assessment models used by ship survivability groups,
the threat comes to down to warhead HE weight and case weight/dimensions.

With modern warship construction techniques, the survivability groups tend not to model anything
with charges under 100 Kg HE (TNT equivalent) unless they are trying to capture something like an
anti-radiation missile with a prox-fuze or it's for a very small surface combatant like a FAC.
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marauder2048

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Unread post08 Jul 2020, 21:10

old_rn wrote:in the case of MBTs Brimstone has been able to reliably impact the turrent (sic) ring.


The turret ring is by far the largest return at MMW.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post20 Jul 2020, 22:54

UK Carrier On Course for First Deployment
18 Jul 2020 David Donald

"...On June 9 the F-35Bs from the joint RAF/Royal Navy No. 617 Squadron—the famous “Dambusters” unit—landed on the carrier, marking the first time that operational UK jets had flown from the carrier. Following an initial qualification phase, the aircraft began training in more operational tasks, such as launching aircraft to mount combat air patrols to defend the carrier and its strike group, and short-notice launches of up to four aircraft. Queen Elizabeth returned to Portsmouth on July 2.

Now the carrier is being prepared for another phase of work-up in which it will exercise with forces from the U.S. and other NATO allies in a Joint Warrior Group Exercise. As part of the campaign, the vessel’s ability to act as a task group flagship will be put to the test. From the air side, a key component of the exercise will involve the [b]joint embarkation of F-35Bs from both No. 617 Squadron and the U.S. Marine Corps’ 3rd Marine Air Wing. Five UK aircraft will be partnered by 10 from Marine squadron VMFA-211[/b], supported by six Merlins. The U.S. aircraft will deploy to RAF Marham in the late summer for shore-based training with their UK counterparts. The carrier itself will require the addition of some Marines-specific equipment. The Corps has been operating the F-35B from assault carriers since 2018....

...All the activity involves preparations for the Carrier Strike Group (CSG) to undertake its first operational deployment in May 2021. At present Queen Elizabeth will be accompanied by a submarine, two Type 45 destroyers (Diamond and Defender), two Type 23 frigates (Kent and Richmond), the royal fleet auxiliary Fort Victoria, and a Tide-class tanker. Plans call for the air wing to consist of eight UK F-35Bs and six Marine Corps jets, nine Merlin Mk 2s, and a number of AW159 Wildcat helicopters equipped to fire the Thales Martlet light missile....

...However, the UK’s carrier strike capability build-up has not all been smooth sailing. In late June the National Audit Office (NAO), a government watchdog, published a report in which it questioned whether the carrier force could realize its full potential due to delays in ordering equipment. In particular, the NAO highlighted the failure to have ordered more F-35Bs, of which only 48 are under contract. That translates to a typical air wing of just 12 aircraft, with the ability to embark 24 in emergencies. As each carrier is designed to operate up to 36, the shortage represents a significant loss of potential airpower...."

Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... deployment
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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dtmdragon

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Unread post21 Jul 2020, 08:44

squirrelshoes wrote:I wonder what their maritime strike options would be on QE with their Bees.

I know the weapon set is supposed to expand later in the 2020s but right now I'm having trouble coming up with anything but LGBs.


Paveway IV with the tactical penetrator warhead (added for
UK F-35B IOC) has the same weapons effect as the 2000lb class BLU-109/B used in the Paveway III GBU-24 and GBU-27. I imagine two of those that would be fairly effective against a ship provided the F-35B LO/ stealth ability allowed it to be close enough to laser designate the ship?
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marauder2048

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Unread post21 Jul 2020, 15:47

dtmdragon wrote:
squirrelshoes wrote:I wonder what their maritime strike options would be on QE with their Bees.

I know the weapon set is supposed to expand later in the 2020s but right now I'm having trouble coming up with anything but LGBs.


Paveway IV with the tactical penetrator warhead (added for
UK F-35B IOC) has the same weapons effect as the 2000lb class BLU-109/B used in the Paveway III GBU-24 and GBU-27. I imagine two of those that would be fairly effective against a ship provided the F-35B LO/ stealth ability allowed it to be close enough to laser designate the ship?


Without the high speed moving target capability, it's going to be limited to a comparatively slow warship.
But IIUC, Paveway IV is slated to get that capability (basically the GBU-49 front-end) after penetrator IOC.
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jessmo112

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Unread post21 Jul 2020, 19:20

What about JSM? The U.K. is buying any? The marines font have any? I thought there was a LGB that the USAF is using for moving targets. It wouldn't be the 1st time The U S. Rushed the U.K. weapons.
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marauder2048

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Unread post21 Jul 2020, 20:26

jessmo112 wrote:What about JSM? The U.K. is buying any? The marines font have any? I thought there was a LGB that the USAF is using for moving targets. It wouldn't be the 1st time The U S. Rushed the U.K. weapons.


GBU-49 Lot 5 is the high speed moving target version that the US & friends are using.

Paveway IV is roughly equivalent to GBU-49 Lot 3. It can service some moving targets but not the
70+ mph uniform or 40 mph +/- 0.2g maneuvering target set the Lot 5 can.

Lot 5 was originally pitched to the UK but as I understand it, they've deferred it until after the penetrator has been
fielded.

No idea on the ASCM front. Between JSOW-ER, LRASM or JSM there's no shortage of things that could be qualified.
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