UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

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noth

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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 16:10

mixelflick wrote:Honestly... do you see the French swallowing their pride and buying American again? Something tells me they'd opt for a "stealthed up" Rafale before admitting.... the F-35 is their only real option.

OTOH if it did transpire, it'd be the ultimate feather in LM's cap and may open India's eyes...


I only meant that the French are the only other nation to operate flat top carriers with catapults. Chinese haven't even got there yet. Not going down any path involving French hypothetically buying F-35s.
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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 20:20

mixelflick wrote:Honestly... do you see the French swallowing their pride and buying American again? Something tells me they'd opt for a "stealthed up" Rafale before admitting.... the F-35 is their only real option.

OTOH if it did transpire, it'd be the ultimate feather in LM's cap and may open India's eyes...

Check this out please: viewtopic.php?f=61&t=54736&p=409867&hilit=CdeG#p409867
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post25 Jan 2019, 17:02

spazsinbad wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Honestly... do you see the French swallowing their pride and buying American again? Something tells me they'd opt for a "stealthed up" Rafale before admitting.... the F-35 is their only real option.

OTOH if it did transpire, it'd be the ultimate feather in LM's cap and may open India's eyes...

Check this out please: viewtopic.php?f=61&t=54736&p=409867&hilit=CdeG#p409867


Wow, thank you.

Really helped..
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Unread post27 Jan 2019, 06:10

PERFECT PARTNERSHIP [Six Page PDF of this article is attached below]
Feb 2019 Richard Scott AFM

"...[CMDR Nathan Gray]...“Queen Elizabeth has been designed, keel up, as a strike carrier based around an F-35B fixed-wing air group. We call it a fifth-generation carrier for a fifth-generation aircraft. It’s got all the systems and engineering for the F-35 built into the ship. No other carrier in the world has been built just for this air vehicle.”

Cdr Neil Mathieson, Queen Elizabeth’s Commander Air Engineering, elaborated: “All the [aviation and air engineering] facilities in the ship were driven by this one aircraft. For example, the height of the overhead gantries was all based on the height required to take a lift fan out of an F-35. The workshop facilities, indeed everything around the hangar space, have been optimised for the jet. “From my background, having previously worked in the F-35 programme doing ship/ air integration, helping with the design of this platform and in the early days discussing what FOCFT would look like, to actually come on board and witness such a phenomenal successful flight trials programme, I couldn’t have imagined it.”...

...BF-04 and BF-05 returned to Patuxent River on October 16 on completion of DT-1, by which time they had completed 98 skijump launches, 96 vertical landings and two SRVLs. It should be noted that BF-05 didn’t conduct any missions during the last five days of DT-1 due to a fleet-wide safety inspection and subsequent replacement of a suspect fuel tube. However, this had no impact on the timeline or any test objective. DT-2 focused on external stores testing, minimum performance short take-offs and SRVLs, plus testing the aircraft in more challenging wind conditions. A ‘back to front’ vertical recovery was also conducted as part of envelope expansion.

As is routine with first of class trials, all flying was undertaken to visual flight rules. However, the ship’s AN/SPN-41 instrument carrier landing system was operational and pilots flew a number of approaches using azimuth/elevation alignment from it.

Test points
By the time DT-2 wrapped up on November 18 – a day ahead of schedule – the ITF had completed 202 ski-ramp short take-offs, 187 vertical landings and 15 SRVLs. A total of 54 inert GBU-12 weapons were also dropped; while the UK will use the Paveway IV precisionguided bomb in service, the GBU-12 shares the same mass/aerodynamic properties.

The test points flown in DT-1/DT-2 established an F-35 operating envelope significantly beyond threshold, and have in fact ‘bowled out’ almost half the test points originally planned for DT-3. Maack said: “We’ve managed to test in conditions that provide us ‘stretch capability wind envelopes’ and, in addition to that, with different loadouts, such as external stores and the max asymmetry. We’ve completed all the work already that was planned for DT-3 and in some cases beyond [as stretch goals].

“It’s going to provide a tremendous envelope that the ship can manoeuvre within to support F-35 operations. We talk about the F-35’s carefree handling qualities. In this case I think that the envelopes we’re going to be able to recommend for fleet use are going to provide the ship with the flexibility [of having] carefree envelopes with regards to how they can manoeuvre, and still [provide] suitable conditions for an F-35 to launch and recover.”...

...The 15 SRVL recoveries flown in DT-1/ DT-2 were all designed to demonstrate initial manoeuvre capability and gather evidence to validate prior simulations. Cdr Mathieson explained: “There’s been a huge amount of development work to understand the hazard and risk events, then mitigating all those hazards, to make sure the manoeuvre was safe, and then actually a viable capability enhancement.

“Now we’ve got it out of the simulator, proven the concept, proven the capability and proved the doubters wrong. We will be doing more SRVLs, and not just with test pilots.”

From FLYCO, Cdr Blackmore saw good integration between the LSO and pilots, saying: “We’re going to need an LSO for this approach, based on current assessment. But that’s not a bad thing [because] it gives us subject matter expertise in FLYCO from a qualified pilot.

“Every one of those [SRVL] landings went according to the test plan. It’s a slightly limited envelope at the moment but that’s just because we’re in a test environment. What we’ll look to do next year [in DT-3] is expand that envelope and quantify the additional ‘bring back’ we ultimately get from that technique.”

He added: “SRVL is going to be important in terms of providing us much more operational flexibility. We don’t want to be dropping weapons in the sea – they’re getting more expensive, they’re getting smarter, so we must retain those weapons if we haven’t delivered them against the enemy. It’s important we bring them back on board so we can reuse them.”

Review items
As might be expected, the DT-1/DT-2 trials identified a handful of sub-optimal aspects. For example, initial SRVL trials showed that the lighting in the fixed array visual landing aid requires refinement. “The [fixed array] reds were very bright, but the whites were surprisingly ‘un-bright’,” explained Wilson. “None of the prior modelling had suggested that would be the case. We ended up actually having to paint some lines on the flight deck to aim at because that’s how dim the lights were.

“At the same time, we think the [flight deck] lights are rather bright by night. So there’s some work to do there.”

The helmet, while judged acceptable in its current form, is another item for review. “There’s no obvious indication to the pilot of the quality of the alignment of the helmet,” said Wilson. “We came up with a procedure that allowed us to measure the precision of the helmet but, even then, when we were flying approaches we found there were some subtleties in the way the helmet was aligned that was at times causing some ‘stereo vision’.” Cdr Gray commented: “The helmet worked okay, and it gives us everything we need for what we do around the ship, but in my view there’s still work to be done in some areas. Like anything, things could be improved.”...

...Another test limitation – albeit favourable – was Queen Elizabeth’s inherent stability. “In sea state 6, the ship really doesn’t move very much,” said Wilson. “So we need to get the ship moving more because we haven’t yet found the limiting sea state. “It would be good to find what the limits of the envelope are in DT-3. I personally think that a vertical landing to Queen Elizabeth in sea state 7 is going to be very doable.”

Next steps
Queen Elizabeth returned to HM Naval Base Portsmouth on December 10 to end WESTLANT 18. Following the ship’s return, BAE Systems began a pre-planned 13-week capability insertion period.

The next phase of F-35B testing aboard the ship will take place during the WESTLANT 19 deployment in the latter part of 2019. Again, the flying will be split into two phases running back-to-back.

“As well as establishing operating limits in high sea states, DT-3 will look to further expand the SRVL operating envelope,” said Wilson. “There are many ‘tens’ of test points to fly. There will be in the order of 50 to 60 more SRVLs in order to give a decent clearance to the fleet.

“We’d do internal weapons, external weapons, asymmetries, day as well as night, ship motion, crosswinds, headwinds and changes to overtake [speed].”

DT-3 will be followed by Operational Testing (OT-1) which, explained Cdr Blackmore, will be more operationally focused.

“So far we’ve operated just two jets, but this ship is designed around [an air group] of up to 36 jets, plus the rotary-wing aircraft to go with it,” he said. “This is going to be a phenomenally busy place, but the way that we’ve designed it – with dedicated vertical landing spots and also a runway – allows us to simultaneously launch and recover aircraft...."

Photo: "A deck officer signals BF-05 to launch. Note that the flag indicates the take off is being conducted with a tail wind." Crown Copyright


Source: AirForces Monthly Magazine February 2019 Issue 371
Attachments
F-35B CVF Trials AirForces Monthly Feb 2019 pp6.pdf
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F-35BcvfTailWindSTOtest2018.jpg
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Unread post27 Jan 2019, 12:22

36 combat capable jets is certainly a formidable force. Even with one squadron's worth down for maintenance/repairs it's a lot more capable than the previous Harrier/Invincible class. And with the move from the Harrier/AIM-9L to the F-35B/AMRAAM/Meteor, the pilots must feel like its the leap of a lifetime in capability. That's to say nothing of its air to ground capability, which is clearly far more robust vs. what they had previously.

The Argentinians would be well served to steer well clear of the Falklands, and indeed any potential enemy is going to think twice before acting up and finding one of these ships off its coast. In some ways, it'll be even more capable than current CVN's flying Hornets, Super Hornet's, and soon to be Super Dupers.

All that hard work is finally paying off. Makes me feel good the UK always has our back, and vice versa...
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Unread post30 Jan 2019, 00:36

An e-mail correspondent has pointed out that probably the 'tent' on deck in the recent photo is for the SRVL light repairs:
"...initial SRVL trials showed that the lighting in the fixed array visual landing aid requires refinement. “The [fixed array] reds were very bright, but the whites were surprisingly ‘un-bright’,” explained Wilson. “None of the prior modelling had suggested that would be the case. We ended up actually having to paint some lines on the flight deck to aim at because that’s how dim the lights were. “At the same time, we think the [flight deck] lights are rather bright by night. So there’s some work to do there.”..."

Previous page this thread: download/file.php?id=29221

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Unread post11 Feb 2019, 02:44

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 6.html?amp

The aircraft-carrier Queen Elizabeth, with two squadrons of F-35 stealth fighters on board, will be sent into disputed waters in the Pacific in a display of “hard power”, the defence secretary is due to announce in a major speech on Britain’s military strategy in the post-Brexit world.

Gavin Williamson will declare the UK “may have to intervene” in future to confront aggression from countries like Russia and China who “flout international law” and are “resurgent” in rebuilding their armed forces.

Britain and its western allies have to be ready “to use hard power to support our interests”, the defence secretary is due to say in an address at RUSI (Royal United Services Institute) in London on Monday. “We have to be ready to show the high price of aggressive behaviour, ready to strengthen our resilience.”


Not the first time this guy has been itching to start WWIII having already talked 'tough' to Russia. Used to be a party whip so diplomacy is not a strong point of his.
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Unread post11 Feb 2019, 02:55

marsavian wrote:https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hms-queen-elizabeth-pacific-brexit-military-strategy-china-russia-gavin-williamson-a8772916.html?amp

The aircraft-carrier Queen Elizabeth, with two squadrons of F-35 stealth fighters on board, will be sent into disputed waters in the Pacific in a display of “hard power”, the defence secretary is due to announce in a major speech on Britain’s military strategy in the post-Brexit world.

Gavin Williamson will declare the UK “may have to intervene” in future to confront aggression from countries like Russia and China who “flout international law” and are “resurgent” in rebuilding their armed forces.

Britain and its western allies have to be ready “to use hard power to support our interests”, the defence secretary is due to say in an address at RUSI (Royal United Services Institute) in London on Monday. “We have to be ready to show the high price of aggressive behaviour, ready to strengthen our resilience.”


Not the first time this guy has been itching to start WWIII having already talked 'tough' to Russia. Used to be a party whip so diplomacy is not a strong point of his.


It's called deterrence and has worked well for NATO. Keeping the peace since the end of WWII...............
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Unread post11 Feb 2019, 03:11

Nuclear Weapons are deterrents not getting involved in other countries territorial disputes which have been going on for hundreds of years. An equivalent action would be a Chinese Carrier sailing a couple miles off the disputed Falklands/Malvinas in the name of freedom of navigation, it's just bizarre provocation. If your policy is to contain China militarily and economically at all costs at least be honest and open about it.
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Unread post11 Feb 2019, 04:04

marsavian wrote:Nuclear Weapons are deterrents not getting involved in other countries territorial disputes which have been going on for hundreds of years. An equivalent action would be a Chinese Carrier sailing a couple miles off the disputed Falklands/Malvinas in the name of freedom of navigation, it's just bizarre provocation. If your policy is to contain China militarily and economically at all costs at least be honest and open about it.



Yes, China and Russia are well known for their bizarre provocations...... :?
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Unread post11 Feb 2019, 22:16

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/ ... al-britain

From this spring, HMS Montrose, along with five other naval vessels, will be permanently based in the Gulf using innovative crewing and support methods to keep the ship available for more of the time. Today, we also go further.And I can announce the first operational mission of the HMS Queen Elizabeth will include the Mediterranean, the Middle East and the Pacific region. Making Global Britain a reality. Significantly, British and American F35s will be embedded in the carrier’s air wing. the reach and lethality of our forces and reinforcing the fact that the United States remains our very closest of partners. We share the same vision of the world. A world shaped by individual liberty, the rule of law and, of course, the tolerance of others. We have the unique ability to integrate with US forces across a broad spectrum of areas. And, we are more determined than ever to keep working together.

We will also be using our string of global support facilities and military bases more strategically…to consistently project power both hard and soft. The Duqm port facilities in Oman are large enough to be able to support our aircraft carriers. The Al Minhad and Al Udeid Air Bases, in the Emirates and Qatar respectively, provide strategically important capabilities. In Bahrain, our Naval Base and our long-standing Maritime Command make a major contribution to our activities in the region but also beyond. Further afield we already benefit from facilities in Belize, in Brunei, in Singapore as well as our bases in Cyprus, Gibraltar and Ascension Island. And, I believe that we need to go further. Considering what permanent presence we might need in areas including the Caribbean and Asia-Pacific to extend our global influence. Our proactive approach shows we are not getting by on half measures. For us global engagement is not a reflex reaction to leaving the European Union. It is about a permanent presence.

Turning to our Royal Air Force, fresh from celebrating its centenary last year, it is now firmly focused on the next 100 years. They already have 17 new RAF and Royal Navy F35 Lightning jets, capable of land-based operations anywhere on the globe and due to embark on our aircraft carrier for the first time later this year. We’ll soon have nine new Poseidon P-8 Maritime Patrol Aircraft enabling us to patrol thousands of miles of ocean and greatly enhancing our anti-submarine and maritime capability. We’re upgrading our AWACS aircraft with modern and better capability that will improve our battle winning airborne command and control. We are growing our operational Typhoon squadrons from five to seven - equipping them with world leading radar and now carrying deep strike Storm Shadow cruise missiles. And, to complement leading edge technology from F35, I have decided to use the Transformation Fund to develop swarm squadrons of network enabled drones capable of confusing and overwhelming enemy air defences. We expect to see these ready to be deployed by the end of this year. *

When I came into the Department the talk was about cutting capability. But instead, this Government has delivered an extra £1.8 billion of Defence funding, keeping us on track and prioritising the right UK Defence for the decade to come. That includes £600 million to protect the future of our nuclear deterrence. This ensures we will deliver the new submarines on time and means that we are spending £4 billion every year to ensure the ultimate guarantee of our safety for another 50 years.

That means £60 million to invest in Typhoon’s next generation radar. And, as the cyber threat grows, we are making a very significant additional investment on the £1.9 billion we spend on cyber capabilities. That’s funding to improve offensive cyber, putting the command and control structures in place across-Government. And, it will give us extra money to protect our network resilience from online attacks. With the threat from the Kremlin increasing in the North Atlantic, we’re spending an additional £33 million to improve our anti-submarine warfare capabilities.


* Sooo, French "6th gen" networked drone swarms twenty years earlier courtesy of F-35 ;).
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Unread post12 Feb 2019, 04:18

marsavian wrote:https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/defence-in-global-britain

I can announce the first operational mission of the HMS Queen Elizabeth will include the Mediterranean, the Middle East and the Pacific region. Making Global Britain a reality. Significantly, British and American F35s will be embedded in the carrier’s air wing. [/b][/u] the reach and lethality of our forces and reinforcing the fact that the United States remains our very closest of partners. We share the same vision of the world. A world shaped by individual liberty, the rule of law and, of course, the tolerance of others. We have the unique ability to integrate with US forces across a broad spectrum of areas. And, we are more determined than ever to keep working together.



The USS Carl Vinson is going to deploy with the first two F-35C Squadrons to the Pacific during the same time frame. So, we can only assume they will operate together at some point.
Last edited by Corsair1963 on 12 Feb 2019, 07:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post12 Feb 2019, 07:12

marsavian wrote: ... An equivalent action would be a Chinese Carrier sailing a couple miles off the disputed Falklands/Malvinas in the name of freedom of navigation, it's just bizarre provocation. ...


On the contrary Mars, the "bizarre provocation" is the nine-dash line and island reclamation, which was decades in the planning and building up for it. Then weaponizing them immediately and calling the whole of the international waters of the SCS and regional airspace Beijing's. And on the flimsiest and most laughable of grounds too. And then persistently harassing and ramming shipping and issuing military threats to aircraft. If China ends up "militarily and economically contained", and counterbalanced, and then some, it's been entirely a self-inflicted injury and outcome. And comes on top of many other egregious offenses and behaviors. They did it knowing what could happen, it was entirely premeditated, and they fully accepted the risks and repercussions that could come of it. And so they should. So why take the UK to task for vocally and materially supporting both allies and SEA as a whole? And supporting mutually accepted norms of planetary civilization rather than letting a Chinese Communist Party military dictator-for-life, to get away with any "bizarre provocation" that he wants to embark upon.

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Unread post12 Feb 2019, 07:54

element1loop wrote:
The region thanks you, United Kingdom.



I thank you both.... 8)
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Unread post12 Feb 2019, 08:03

Another look at the speech, I'm hoping USMC F-35Bs aboard CVFs does not let the UK NOT BUY required number of Bees.

U.K. Royal Navy to Establish Permanent Squadron in Middle East; QE to Deploy with U.S. F-35s 11 Feb 2019
http://seapowermagazine.org/stories/20190211-RN.html
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