UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

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quicksilver

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Unread post09 Dec 2018, 21:38

Folks that I talk to say the (maintainability of...) LO system is one of the great successes of the program. They also say (as spaz points out) that the last sentence is bs.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post10 Dec 2018, 00:41

A couple of threads in this 'old' article but headline says 'QE' so WE go here for that but.... F-35Bs for the 'Asian Region'!??
F-35 countdown: Royal Navy completes carrier flight tests
27 Nov 2018 Louis Dillon

"The Royal Navy has completed flight tests for the F-35B aboard Britain’s new aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth, highlighting the opportunities for further Australian industrial support for allies and the potential for Australian capability development in the future.... [then usual correct stats]

...Further to this operational testing, the aircraft dropped 54 GBU-12 Paveway II laser-guided precision training weapons providing the Royal Navy crew with the opportunity to perfect the at-sea handling of ordnance under combat conditions.

Squadron Leader Andy Edgell of the RAF said, "This has been one of the most comprehensive flight trials at sea ever conducted."... [then guff about 'Oz F-35Bs on Oz LHDs wot I'll put in a more appropriate thread]

Source: https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/air-s ... ight-tests
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post12 Dec 2018, 16:58

New capabilities demonstrated at ‘Point Blank’ exercise
11 Dec 2018 Simon Michell

"The trilateral Exercise 'Point Blank', co-hosted by the Royal Air Force (RAF) and the United States Air Force (USAF) and completed in late November, was a milestone in offensive combat air training.

Not only was it the first time the French Air Force (FAF) had participated, it was also the first time that fifth-generation combat aircraft had been integrated with fourth-generation fighters. It was also the first time that a multinational air package of this sort had been pitted against a near-peer adversary armed with land-based and airborne threats in a training scenario.

For over an hour, RAF F-35B Lightning II and Typhoon combat aircraft, FAF Rafales, and USAF F-15E Strike Eagles attacked simulated targets along the coast of the North Sea while fending off aggressor aircraft, simulated surface missile threats, and concerted jamming....

...Point Blank feeds into the three TSI development strands that are being pursued next year: command and control resilience, artificial intelligence (AI) in information sharing, and future basing. AI-based information analysis, which is currently being pioneered by the US Algorithmic Warfare Cross-Functional Team under Project Maven, runs algorithms through data to speed up its processing, exploitation, and dissemination."

Source: https://www.janes.com/article/85122/new ... k-exercise
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post16 Dec 2018, 00:57

Back to the SPLIT BUY A/B potential FIASCO with a WERY long Blurb from Gabriele-which makes sense-you know it does.
About that Split Buy idea...
02 Dec 2018 Gabriele

"Not long ago, Johnny Mercer, tory MP for Plymouth, made a vehement plea for honesty in the handling of Defence issues. I cannot possibly overstate how important it is to bring back some honesty in this sector, because there is a clear shortage of it....

...Today, however, I want to write about the F-35 programme because Deborah Haynes, foreign affairs editor at Sky News, has given voice to a worried leak, coming from the Navy, about the RAF’s intention of splitting the F-35 purchase, abandoning the carrier-capable, short take off and vertical landing B variant in favor of the A variant, which can only operate from fully established land airbases.

The report sadly comes as no surprise although, for the very first time, it goes as far as suggesting that not even the first 48 aircraft are “safe”, as the RAF is reportedly pushing to switch to the A variant possibly already with the next contracts in line, which will cover production Lot 15 (UK expected to procure 7 aircraft) and Lot 16 (6 aircraft).

The UK has just taken delivery of its 17th F-35, BK-17, the third to be delivered this year and also the last. It concluded the 3 aircraft purchase for the UK in Low Rate Initial Production lot 10. Next year, a single F-35B will be added, from LRIP 11. The UK has also confirmed mere days ago that, as part of the first-ever “Block Buy” contract in the F-35 programme, it will procure the expected 17 airframes over lots 12, 13 and 14 (3, 6 and 8 respectively). This is perfectly in line with what was earlier approved with Main Gate 5 and already reported on by the NAO.

Lot 15 is expected to include a further 7, leading the fleet to a total of 42 by the end of 2023, as was promised in the SDSR 2015, with Lot 16 adding 6 more to get to 48 by January 2025. No purchase plan has been detailed for the year 2025 and beyond.

I don’t believe that Main Gate 5, which authorized the procurement of these first 48 aircraft, will be re-opened and modified. I think it is highly unlikely. But from 2016 onwards the noise about the RAF purchasing the A variant has only ever gotten louder. To ignore it would stupid, because it is a fact that the RAF is interested and in favor of the split. They have said as much, despite some indignant reactions to the latest Sky News report. … [LONG READ at URL]

Source: http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot ... -idea.html
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Corsair1963

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Unread post17 Dec 2018, 11:25

....and we know the RAF usually gets what it wants! Just ask the Royal Navy. :?
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blindpilot

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Unread post17 Dec 2018, 18:42

Corsair1963 wrote:....and we know the RAF usually gets what it wants! Just ask the Royal Navy. :?


Hmm ... sounds like Australia might be able to pick up a $B's F-35B carrier for just pennies on the dollar some day in the future .. when the RN is through being ... rap---... taken advantage of. ... Make a $100M offer and see what happens. Throw in $50M to take 48 Bee's off their hands as well.

It's cool. They have often used hand me down, left over RN ships. They can even keep the name ... either QE and POW both being Aussie monarchs as well.

Aaargh! So sad.

BP
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Corsair1963

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Unread post18 Dec 2018, 00:36

Sell the HMS Prince of Wales to India or Australia and problem solved. As the Royal Navy could live with 48-60 F-35B's and the RAF could have the remainder as F-35A's. I hope not but it wouldn't surprise with either..... :?
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post18 Dec 2018, 00:50

You need at least two carriers operational at the same time in order to have at least one available 24/7/365.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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Corsair1963

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Unread post18 Dec 2018, 00:51

SpudmanWP wrote:You need at least two carriers operational at the same time in order to have at least one available 24/7/365.



Would be nice but you have to be able to afford two in the first place. Which, seems to be the question in the case of the Royal Navy. In addition France get's buy with one....
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Unread post18 Dec 2018, 00:56

Corsair1963 wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:You need at least two carriers operational at the same time in order to have at least one available 24/7/365.

Would be nice but you have to be able to afford two in the first place. Which, seems to be the question in the case of the Royal Navy. In addition France get's buy with one....

What does 'get buy with one' mean? I guess you mean 'get by' and still WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? CdeG is not exactly a shining example of a ONE carrier Navy. IF one has only ONE then they for sure will 'get by'. What else can they do? The RAN 'got by' with one for some many years (after having three temporarily but then two with one only an axial deck then ONE for at least a decade).
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post18 Dec 2018, 01:00

From previous link http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot ... a.html?m=1

My belief has always been that the two additional Typhoon Sqns enabled by the partial reprieve for the Tranche 1 aircraft would be nothing more than placeholders to be sacrificed come 2025+ in favor of F-35 squadrons number 3 and number 4, but the official line is that Tranche 1 is here to stay for the long term, well into the 2030s if not out to 2040, current OSD for the Typhoon as a type. I keep believing that Tranche 1 will not actually survive that long; but if it does it will only make me wonder all the more how the whole thing is supposed to work.


That would be a way for the RAF to siphon off the last 38 aircraft of the 138 buy as F-35A, to specifically replace the by then obsolete Captor-M Tranche 1 Typhoons leaving 100 F-35B for the Navy. Any UK government could justify this as just a valid specific airframe replacement leaving Tempest way in the future afterwards to replace the other more modern and by then Captor-E Tranche 2/3 Typhoons. Regardless F-35 is cheap enough and will be in production long enough for the UK MoD to buy all the aircraft it needs for the two carriers and any RAF requirements too.
Last edited by marsavian on 18 Dec 2018, 01:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post18 Dec 2018, 01:03

spazsinbad wrote:What does 'get buy with one' mean? I guess you mean 'get by' and still WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? CdeG is not exactly a shining example of a ONE carrier Navy. IF one has only ONE then they for sure will 'get by'. What else can they do? The RAN 'got by' with one for some many years (after having three temporarily but then two with one only an axial deck then ONE for at least a decade).




Yes, I of course meant "get by" not get buy... :?

Nonetheless, the French Navy operate a single Aircraft Carrier. Just stating a simple fact. I wasn't making a case for one vs two.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post18 Dec 2018, 01:06

marsavian wrote:
That would be a way for the RAF to siphon off the last 38 aircraft of the 138 buy as F-35A, to specifically replace the by then obsolete Captor-M Tranche 1 Typhoons leaving 100 F-35B for the Navy. Any UK government could justify this as just a valid specific airframe replacement leaving Tempest way in the future afterwards to replace the other more modern and by then Captor-E Tranche 2/3 Typhoons.



I have a hard time seeing the Royal Navy getting 100 F-35B's. While, the RAF would get just 38 F-35A's.... :|
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Unread post18 Dec 2018, 01:20

Corsair1963 wrote:
marsavian wrote:
That would be a way for the RAF to siphon off the last 38 aircraft of the 138 buy as F-35A, to specifically replace the by then obsolete Captor-M Tranche 1 Typhoons leaving 100 F-35B for the Navy. Any UK government could justify this as just a valid specific airframe replacement leaving Tempest way in the future afterwards to replace the other more modern and by then Captor-E Tranche 2/3 Typhoons.


I have a hard time seeing the Royal Navy getting 100 F-35B's. While, the RAF would get just 38 F-35A's.... :|


To replace 35 Tranche 1 Typhoons operating two 12-aircraft squadrons it adds up. However the RAF would have to pay a price, two less squadrons of Tempest ultimately bought. This could be justified on cost grounds and would smoke out how seriously the RAF want F-35A, is it enough to buy less Tempest ? Otherwise they can all be F-35B.
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Unread post18 Dec 2018, 02:15

Corsair1963 wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:What does 'get buy with one' mean? I guess you mean 'get by' and still WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? CdeG is not exactly a shining example of a ONE carrier Navy. IF one has only ONE then they for sure will 'get by'. What else can they do? The RAN 'got by' with one for some many years (after having three temporarily but then two with one only an axial deck then ONE for at least a decade).

Yes, I of course meant "get by" not get buy... :? Nonetheless, the French Navy operate a single Aircraft Carrier. Just stating a simple fact. I wasn't making a case for one vs two.

IF pronouncements by politicians in UK are worth anything then the PM saying TWO CVFs will be retained/operated etc. means anything then this is it. Give the RAF CRABbiness about the F-35B who knows. IF ONLY a few F-35Bs are bought for ONE CVF then the RAF crabess makes the case for having ONLY ONE CVF. CAPICHE? & RN FAA Downward Spiral Continues.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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