UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

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SpudmanWP

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Unread post19 Dec 2017, 22:49

UK Report Summary (ie the "Conclusions and recommendations" section of the full report):

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... /32610.htm

Full report here:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... 26/326.pdf

Accompanying briefing from MoD to Conservative Mps F35–Claims and Reality

Claim: The F-35 is unable to share data.
This is incorrect. Data exchange was examined during a recent Red Flag exercise with the US where the F-35 acquitted itself exceptionally well. To describe the data link as insecure is incorrect. MOD, alongside our NATO partners, has allocated funding to continue the upgrade of secure communications via this data link.

Claim: There are hidden costs within the F-35 programme.
We simply do not recognise the costs quoted in the article. The UK’s F-35 programme remains within its cost approval, details of which are in the Defence Equipment Plan 2016, published on 27 January 2017. MOD is working hard with the suppliers to ensure delivery to budget and programme cost effectiveness. Defence expert Howard Wheeldon has described The Times’ figures as ‘back of a fag packet’ cost guestimates that also fail to mention cost reductions that will come from a low rate initial production (LRIP) As recently announced, the Department has invested in RAF Marham to ensure availability and support to the UK F-35. This investment ensures that cutting edge maintenance facilities are available to the aircraft on arrival in the UK next year.

Claim: The broadband capacity of Queen Elizabeth is insufficient to support F-35.
This is incorrect. The planned bandwidth of the Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers will be sufficient to carry out the scope of carrier strike operations, over the life of the programme. As with all programmes, requirements and opportunities are kept under constant review and will be developed through the life of the programme. The aircraft, the carrier and our communication networks are all designed with the capacity to grow, and are not constrained by design or bandwidth limitations.

Claim: The Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS) software system is [a] vulnerability in the F-35 system
This is incorrect. ALIS is part of the ground based information system and is not fitted on board the F-35B Lightning II fighter aircraft. We don’t comment on the specifics of Cyber operations, but we take encryption and protection of our information very seriously and these measures remain classified. All classified data transmissions to and from the F-35B Lightning II fighter aircraft are fully encrypted.

Claim: The F-35 has a number of on-going technical issues:
All issues raised have been reported in the past and are under active management by the Joint Strike Fighter Joint Programme Office and the MOD. The F-35 Programme is still within the Development Test phase. As issues are found, solutions are developed; the UK is part of that testing.

Claim: The F-35 is too heavy to land on the aircraft carrier.
This is nonsense. We have specifically developed a UK technique for recovering the aircraft to the carriers to ensure that a heavy aircraft can land on the deck. Ship-borne Rolling Vertical Landing (SRVL) will be tested during Flight Trials of HMS Queen Elizabeth over the next couple of years.

Claim: Helmet not fit for purpose.
We are holding the supplier to account to deliver a helmet that delivers the full operational requirement and we are confident that issue will be resolved satisfactorily.

Claim: The F-35 has less memory than the average iPhone.
The figure of 10 GB is not recognised by the MoD and comparison of F-35 memory with an iPhone is neither credible, nor sensible. The F-35 software architecture is partitioned with memory distributed around the aircraft to achieve specific functions in a rigorous security architecture, and the memory is of many, many orders of magnitude higher than 10GB.

Claim: The F-35 programme is not subject to proper public scrutiny.
This is incorrect. The F-35 programme is publicly held to account by:
• In March 2017, the NAO report ‘Delivering Carrier Strike’, for example, analysed the carrier programme and conducted a deep dive in the F-35.
• The annual Project Performance Summary Table (formerly the Major Projects Report), which forms part of the Equipment Plan, scrutinised by both the HCDC and PAC.
• The Major Projects Authority, which provides independent assurance as part of its Government Major Projects Portfolio.
• The Director of Operational Test & Evaluation report, as part of the global F-35 programme.

All of these reviews can be found online.
The programme is also held to account internally by:
• The Defence Portfolio Approvals Secretariat
• Integrated Assurance Reviews
Last edited by SpudmanWP on 20 Dec 2017, 05:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post19 Dec 2017, 23:17

the memory is of many, many orders of magnitude higher than 10GB

Wasn't there recently a report about terabytes of data being downloaded after missions (I don't remember exactly, something related to ALIS?)
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Unread post19 Dec 2017, 23:25

My favorite quote

Defence expert Howard Wheeldon has described The Times’ figures as ‘back of a fag packet’ cost guestimates that also fail to mention cost reductions
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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Unread post20 Dec 2017, 00:36

Thanks 'SWP' what a great find with the explanations clear & concise. I'll have to find some favourite phrases but it is clear THE TIMES writers took liberty with their words. Surely stuff about 'automatic SRVL' by BRONK is hogwash - we know.
"...109.We also asked Mr Bronk about the SRVL technique. He took the view that the question was not whether the F-35 was capable of performing such a manoeuvre, but rather “when the software will be developed to conduct such a landing”.106 He explained that the SRVL technique would be a largely automatic process and, as such, the development of the software required to perform this landing would take “some time”.

No kidding & HAS IT BEEN DEVELOPED? :bang: Sir Yes Sir. Bronkadonkdonk must have been living under a WROCK! :wtf:
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Unread post21 Dec 2017, 02:12

Usual negative stuff said above however the last paragraphs in article are interesting enough indeed & CRABS bloody 'ell.
F-35 Gets Bad Report Card from UK Legislators
20 Dec 2017 Chris Pocock

"...However, the committee’s report did concede that “the assurances about the rigorous level of cyber-testing of the F-35’s Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS) software are welcome, as is the assurance that the UK will have complete and unfettered use of the software for the sovereign operation of our F-35 fleet.” But, it added, “we ask for greater clarity from Lockheed Martin on the level of protection in place for the technical data gathered by ALIS in relation to the UK’s F-35 fleet, including whether this data falls within the U.S. Government’s 'unlimited rights license'."

The UK will receive another three F-35Bs at Beaufort next year, and one more—its 18th in total—in early 2019. Some of these jets will fly to the UK next summer so that No. 617 Squadron can begin flying trials on the QEII in the third quarter, and achieve initial operating capability (IOC) in the land-based role by December 2018. The IOC for carrier-based operations is due by December 2020. The UK keeps three test and evaluation F-35Bs at Edwards AFB, where they will remain.

To date, the UK has bought only 18 F-35Bs. However, in January 2017 the MoD made budgetary provision for another 30 jets for delivery from 2020 to 2025. The provision was for £3 billion including initial support, which works out at nearly $134 million per aircraft at today’s exchange rate. The first 18 aircraft for the UK appear to have cost more than £150 million ($200 million) each. In its testimony to the HCDC, the MoD maintained its assertion that the UK will eventually buy 138 F-35s. Most independent observers regard this as highly unlikely. Next month, the MoD is due to reveal another round of personnel and equipment cuts, just 26 months after a Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR) set a budget that was supposed to last five years.

Beyond 2025, the UK could save on both acquisition and operating costs by buying conventional takeoff-and-landing (CTOL) F-35A versions instead. This has long been the desire of the Royal Air Force, because of the greater range and weapons load of the F-35A compared with the F-35B. Lockheed Martin has promised to reduce the unit recurring flyaway cost (URFC) of the F-35A to about $80 million in current dollars." [LET US SEE THESE RAF MoFos fly these F-35As from CVFs - some agreement eh. The RAF will NEVER honour ANY AGREEMENT with RN/RN FAA - it is SAD JUST SAD - I WEEP.]

Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... egislators
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post21 Dec 2017, 18:21

Previous page this thread has info about UK fire truck innovation - here are some details from another forum:
" 17 Dec 2017 11:31 #4041
The NMATT is the Navy Medium Aircraft Tow Tractor which is the slightly-modified version of the tri-service MATT for shipboard use - principally, no cab (the fear of being trapped and drowning apparently out-weighting the risks of overturning and collision). The pic below is of the standard version version in use by the FAA.

The fire-fighting mod adds a nozzle assembly to which the mains hoses are connected; brilliantly simple, low-cost mod turning every on-board tractor into a fire fighting unit. There was some discussion of surface deicing and snow clearing fittings to take account of the size of the new carriers.

PHOTO: http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5125/537 ... 5147_z.jpg

Source: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/warship ... s4040.html
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Unread post21 Dec 2017, 18:39

Prince of Wales floated from dry dock.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/hms-pri ... in-rosyth/
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Unread post21 Dec 2017, 19:03

Further to 'zerion' post above there is some connected info about future F-35B/CVF testing in 2019 in that report....
Please note that unlike rabble - especially news media that should know better :doh: 'the' is not placed in front of the name of an HMS/HMAS vessel because HMS = Her Majesty's Ship - thus writing 'the Her Majesty's Ship' is just plain wrong.
HMS Prince of Wales floated out of dry dock in Rosyth
21 Dec 2017 George Allison

"...HMS Prince of Wales is the sister ship of HMS Queen Elizabeth. The carrier will take over F-35 trials to allow HMS Queen Elizabeth to return to dock for her routine re-certification work.

Former Captain of the vessel Ian Groom told media that HMS Prince of Wales will need to be delivered during 2019 to allow flight trails to continue whilst Queen Elizabeth is undergoing inspection in dry dock. HMS Prince of Wales is currently on track for sea trials in mid-2019. Quoted in Janes, Groom said:

“There is a further set of fixed-wing flying trials needed and HMS Prince of Wales has to carry them out. HMS Queen Elizabeth’s re-certification period in 2019 means we need HMS Prince of Wales then.”


The builders are already applying lessons from including improvements to the process of preparing its heat-resistant flight deck and installing an improved F-35 landing light systems earlier in the build process....

...Previous captain, Ian Groom, said:
“We optimised systems and learned how things could be improved both in terms of the systems and also the order in which you build things to make it more efficient and we’re drawing those lessons into Prince of Wales so that we can build it as swiftly as possible to the highest quality.

The reason we need two ships is to make sure that one is always available at very high readiness to provide choice to the government. That choice ranges from hard military power, delivering carrier strike, right down to humanitarian aid or promoting UK trade and industry.

HMS Queen Elizabeth is there now and once HMS Prince of Wales comes into service then the two ships will work side-by-side ensuring one is always available to be used and the second one will be at high readiness and conducting training and maintenance. The ships will leapfrog one another through those roles and that is what continuous carrier availability provides.”..."


Source: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/hms-pri ... in-rosyth/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post24 Dec 2017, 00:41

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Unread post28 Dec 2017, 06:06

Four Page PDF of this article attached - photo from article in Air International January 2018 Vol.94 No.1 Magazine edition.
Carrier air wing work-up
Jan 2018 Ian Harding; Air International Magazine

"...Lt Cdr Whitson-Fay explained: “Operations to and from the flight deck are constrained and tightly controlled to the minute, so that fixed and rotary-wing assets can operate in the same space. We have a whole generation of good naval aviators who are not used to operating within such tight constraints. Kernow Flag was about us relearning the lessons of old, operating within tight constraints, starting with the basic steps of departing and arriving back on time, to the minute. [CHARLIE TIME FOR FIXED WING]

“A key element of the exercise was to create complexity and extra confusion that the ship’s personnel will encounter as they aim to meet the carrier and their squadron’s flight programmes, plus the objectives of the specifi cooperation they are supporting. All three elements must come together for the ship to operate and function, but it’s not just about aviation; maintenance and engineering must also work effectively. Logistics, supplies and administration must be tested and personnel need to eat.

“Without these elements working together there is no aviation capability. We therefore set out our daily plan, worked out where the conflicts of interest were and aligned them so that aircraft could leave and arrive back on time.”...

...Royal Navy flight deck handlers, all initially trained at Culdrose and presently training on board HMS Queen Elizabeth. The dummy deck used for the exercise is a permanent facility used by the Royal Navy School of Flight Deck Operations based at Culdrose. Each year, the school trains over 2,000 personnel in flight deck operations in a realistic confined environment using both ground training aircraft, which include F-35 replica aircraft, and live Sea Harrier FA2s...."

Source: Flight International Magazine January 2018 Vol.94 No.1
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UK Carrier Air Wing Workup Air International Jan 2018 pp4.pdf
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Unread post30 Dec 2017, 10:50

Teacup in a storm blown out of the water - QE media target:
HMS Queen Elizabeth – a large and convenient media target
19 Dec 2017 SaveTheRoyalNavy

"“Navy’s new £3.1Bn aircraft carrier is leaking” screams the front-page headline in today’s Sun newspaper, The Daily Express then helpfully adds to the hysteria by claiming “the ship is sinking”. The simple facts of this rather routine occurrence is that a leaking stern seal on one of HMS Queen Elizabeth’s propeller shafts was discovered during sea trials and is allowing small amounts of water into the ship.

Stern seals are one of the more challenging aspects of marine engineering. There are two opposing requirements when designing the seal, the propeller shaft must exit the hull and be free to rotate with minimal friction but sealed sufficiently tight to keep out the pressure of seawater. Modern mechanical seals use a series of spring-loaded rings that require lubrication by oil and seawater and are complex assemblies that often cause problems. One very experienced naval officer commented today, “on every ship I served on we experienced issues with the stern seals at some point”....

...The fourth rate fourth estate
By midday, the BBC website and more serious news outlets were leading on this story and the general public, having been continuously drip-fed negative news on HMS Queen Elizabeth might be forgiven for thinking we have a leaky aircraft carrier with no aircraft. Journalists insist this routine occurrence is a big “story” and doubtless, their editors are very happy with them. It is a story because they have made it so, taking a small fact out of context and magnifying its significance is how one of the less reputable aspects of journalism works. There are several very good defence journalists who have been helpful to the navy’s cause, particularly in the recent current defence funding crisis, but in this instance, the media is making something out of nothing and misleading the public....

...Getting on with the job
While the media circus surrounding the ship continues, the RN is getting on with delivering the carrier strike programme. Flag Officer Sea Training (FOST) team is now aboard HMS Queen Elizabeth making their assessments and writing a training syllabus for a brand new class of ship. Safety will be the focus of the FOST period that will be conducted when the ship sails in late January for the South West Approaches and Eastern Atlantic. Once completed, the formal Merlin helicopter first of type acceptance trials will be conducted, allowing full clearance to operate the type under a relevant SHOL (Ship Helicopter Operating Limits) essential to the QE’s overall capability...."


Source: http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/hms-que ... ia-target/
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CVF QE Alongside White Ensign TIF.jpg
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Unread post30 Dec 2017, 18:02

spazsinbad wrote:Teacup in a storm blown out of the water - QE media target:
HMS Queen Elizabeth – a large and convenient media target
...
"...headline in today’s Sun newspaper, The Daily Express then helpfully adds to the hysteria by claiming “the ship is sinking”. The simple facts of this rather routine occurrence ... One very experienced naval officer commented today, “on every ship I served on we experienced issues with the stern seals at some point”.... The fourth rate fourth estate By midday, the BBC ...


What is frustrating is that this trend reflects not just on journalism but actual engineering. Contemporary audiences seem to think engineering is a two year old putting together Lego blocks. They are totally clueless.

There was a time (think Apollo Moon program) where people expected engineers to face challenges, problems, even impossible tasks, and work through them one by one until they achieved something of value. These "issues" defined engineering in its glory, not its failure.

Alas, but the "two year old-Lego" culture of today simply doesn't know what it means to engineer. We shouldn't be surprised when the two year old journalists throw tantrums and blocks in the play room. That's who they are.

MHO,
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Unread post30 Dec 2017, 18:52

PoW construction time lapse video going try to get just the floating vid.



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Unread post07 Jan 2018, 21:54

Hysterical (word substitution for comic effect) 2 page PDF 'bout "UK Carrier Strike" & CVF 'adaptability' - conventional ops.

AirForces Monthly July 2009 #256 CARRIER STRIKE Protecting Our Interests by Quentin Davies UK Armed Forces MIN.
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UK Carrier Strike AirForces Monthly JULY 2009.pdf
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Unread post09 Jan 2018, 14:18

zerion wrote:Prince of Wales floated from dry dock.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/hms-pri ... in-rosyth/


This is the one that will also carry troops.

As stated in the Strategic Defence and Security Review, the government plan to enhance a Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carrier to support amphibious capability, that ship will be HMS Prince of Wales.

When discussing these capabilities while we were on board the Prince of Wales, we were told that modifications would include enhancing the vessels ability to host troops. This means that storage for additional marines and more equipment will be provided and some key corridors widened too.
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