UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

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talkitron

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Unread post25 Jun 2017, 02:50

spazsinbad wrote:RAF set to scale back on supersonic F-35Bs jets for Royal Navy aircraft carriers


The comments on the article are hilariously misinformed. Read them for fun.

The one comment with a grain of truth is that "The US Marine Corps is larger and better equipped than the whole of our combined Navy, Army and Air Force." The USMC is larger in terms of personnel and the advantage in the air will only come once F-35Bs are acquired in larger numbers. Of course, the USMC does not own its own ships, is not involved with SSBNs, and has limited tanks and artillery.
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Unread post25 Jun 2017, 05:26

talkitron wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:RAF set to scale back on supersonic F-35Bs jets for Royal Navy aircraft carriers


The comments on the article are hilariously misinformed. Read them for fun.

The one comment with a grain of truth is that "The US Marine Corps is larger and better equipped than the whole of our combined Navy, Army and Air Force." The USMC is larger in terms of personnel and the advantage in the air will only come once F-35Bs are acquired in larger numbers. Of course, the USMC does not own its own ships, is not involved with SSBNs, and has limited tanks and artillery.


USMC has more troops/personnel (182,000 to 154,000) than the British armed force. More tanks, artillery, and almost as many IFV type vehicles as the British army. It has more fighter aircraft, C-130s, helicopters etc. than the RAF. The ships generally dedicated to the 9 ESGs assuming no CTF involved would equal the RN, in surface ships and likely attack subs.. The Amphibious ships sailing in those 9 ESGs would triple or more the number of Carrier/Amphibs of the RN.

The Marines do not have SSBNs. That part is true. But no, apart from those subs, "The US Marine Corps is larger and better equipped than the whole of [the UK] combined Navy, Army and Air Force."

FWIW,
BP
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Unread post25 Jun 2017, 16:05

On the half F-35A vs all F-35B debate, this blogger has a good argument for why the F-35A idea is silly.

http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot ... sense.html
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Unread post26 Jun 2017, 02:50

This is where the 'suck back in the hold back' phrase (before catapulting) has meaning for a ship & now CVF gets going.
UK's largest warship sets sail
26 Jun 2017 SKYnews

"The largest warship ever built in the UK is due to set sail for the first time today. HMS Queen Elizabeth, the Royal Navy's new aircraft carrier, will leave her dock in Scotland around lunchtime to start two years of sea trials. She is named after Elizabeth the first and is the second ship to carry the name - the first was a World War One battleship.

More than 700 crew are onboard, from seamen to aircraft engineers, dentists to force protection. The oldest crew member is 58 and the youngest 17 although the average age is in the early twenties. In recent weeks they have been practising drills and familiarising themselves with their new ship. Their first task will be to successfully sail her out of the basin she was built in.

It will need precise calculations and nerves of steel. At high tide, she will be guided through a narrow exit in the harbour. This has been widened but still only allows 14 inches either side to spare.

Recent dry weather in the Highlands and Cairngorms has meant less rainfall in the Forth - when she squeezes through the exit, the man at the steering wheel on the bridge - Chief Petty Officer Sticky Vercoe - will only have 50cm beneath the keel and the river bed.

The flight deck will overhand buildings either side. If the wind is too strong she risks bouncing off the harbour walls which could damage her before she's even reached open water. Once clear she will be pulled into the middle of the Forth where she will drop anchor for a few hours.

At low tide, she will make her approach towards the three Forth bridges close to midnight, sailing at 3-4 knots; any faster and suction will pull her downwards into the river - an effect known as 'squat'. The first two road bridges can flex by up to three metres in high winds but the third, Brunel's iconic Forth Bridge, poses its own challenge - height.

A radar mast will be hydraulically lowered to make room for the ship to pass underneath. Even so, were a person to stand on the highest point of her, and reach up, they would be able to touch the Forth Bridge as they sailed through. 'It is like driving your car into a car park you go 'oh my god' and dip in your seat. It is exactly the same feeling as that,' said Captain Jerry Kyd, who has previously commanded the UK's last two aircraft carriers HMS Ark Royal and HMS Illustrious.

The whole process could take more than 10 hours.

The following six weeks will be spent in the North Sea and Moray Firth 'proving systems' - she will finally sail into her home port of Portsmouth sometime in the autumn. Flight trials will begin off the eastern seaboard of the United States in October 2018...."

Source: http://www.skynews.com.au/news/world/eu ... -sail.html
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Unread post26 Jun 2017, 08:35

Photo series 'bout CVF:
Up close with HMS Queen Elizabeth
26 Jun 2017 SaveTheRoyalNavy

"...The ship has been designed from the outset to embark four squadrons of aircraft. Initially, there will be helicopter squadrons and then a single F-35 squadron. It will be well into the 2030s before the UK has enough F-35s to embark two squadrons (of approximately 12-aircraft each). US Marine Corps aircraft are likely to be frequent visitors and may even embark a full squadron at times. The air management organisation (on 2 deck aft), provides each of the four aircraft squadrons with their own spacious offices and mission planning spaces. There is also a large group briefing room/lecture theatre. The movement of aircrew from their accommodation to briefing rooms and on to their aircraft has been carefully designed to be as quick and easy as possible, in contrast to older carriers.

Control positions
Spacing out the main machinery into two almost separate systems is the primary reason for the unique twin-island design of the QE. This separation requires funnel uptakes that are a distance away from each other. This arrangement makes the ship’s propulsion particularly resistant to action damage. The Flyco is now entirely separate from the bridge and this will take some adjustment for experienced carrier operators who are used to having flying control team close to the navigation team. This also offers additional redundancy, as the aft island could act as an emergency conning position or forward island as Flyco if the other is damaged.

As currently configured, QE has 6 aircraft operating spots (this could be increased if needed in future). With around 45 meters between each spot, this provides a large safety margin. There [are] 3 areas of the flight deck that have been coated with TMS (Thermal Metal Spray). This coating prevents damage to the steel deck plates from the fierce heat of the F-35B jetwash, when landing vertically and conducts the heat away, preventing damage to aircraft tyres.

The F-35 is coated with radar absorbent material which is relatively fragile. The aircraft must be handled more carefully than older generation jets. Some critics have suggested it will degrade rapidly in the harsh marine environment (it is reportedly standing up well to harsh desert wind and sand in the US). The flight deck has blue markings down the aft port side where F-35s can be parked overhanging the deck, although they will be probably kept down in the hangar as much as possible. When on the flight deck, it is planned helicopters will usually be parked on the starboard side, clustered around the islands.

QE is designed to operate up to 40 aircraft in her main Carrier Strike role. When operating in the Littoral Manoeuvre role she can embark a maximum of 43 helicopters. It should be noted that it will be some years before the UK has enough aircraft to send to sea in these numbers. The mix of aircraft types embarked will vary depending on the mission and availability – this is the concept is known as the Tailored Air Group...."

Photo:"The lighter grey at the top of the picture is the heat resistant TMS coating applied to 3 areas of the flight deck" http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/wp-cont ... zabeth.jpg


Source: http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/up-clos ... elizabeth/
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Unread post26 Jun 2017, 16:53

Some more details of CVF move here: http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/hms-que ... -the-plan/

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Unread post27 Jun 2017, 00:03

Plenty of pics & suchlike at this URL whilst we see the TMS in three spots on deck on the centerline with main at FLYCO:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... oyage.html
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Unread post27 Jun 2017, 00:35

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QE3.jpg
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post27 Jun 2017, 01:39

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CVFflightDeckTMSrosythSTERNforumED.jpg
Last edited by spazsinbad on 27 Jun 2017, 02:23, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread post27 Jun 2017, 01:52

For more pics vids and updates

https://mobile.twitter.com/QEClassCarriers
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Unread post27 Jun 2017, 02:30

Any chance the prince of Wales might go CATOBAR? I understand that there would be logistical challenges of operating a different model, but would that perhaps be outweighed by the C's advantages? The extra range might be a big deal if the brits plan on operating in the Pacific, not to mention cross-decking with the US. Regardless, it's nice to see one of my country's allies gaining a big increase in capabilities.
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Unread post27 Jun 2017, 02:36

C'mon 'whitelightning35' - read this thread to understand why your suggestion IS NOT happening - please. AND.... at last an animated video showing a proper STOVL Mode 4 F-35B departure UP the angle ski jump of CVF. OMG! :mrgreen:

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Unread post27 Jun 2017, 03:03

Thanks for that vid, Spaz. Seeing the video of the inside of that cavernous hangar deck... I got to thinking... y'know... if they cut an aircraft shaped hole in the bow of the ship, and installed an EMALS on the hangar deck... then they could launch Lightnings just like Vipers off Battlestar Galactica. Just sayin'... :devil:
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post27 Jun 2017, 03:30

:( My apologies. I was just reading up on the QE, and how it was " future-proofed", as in made with the possibility of using catapults. Thinking that they would perhaps be adding something else to complement the f-35 down the line, I guess my imagination took control. Sorry for the pointless questions which have already been answered.
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Unread post27 Jun 2017, 03:38

I asked once about the loads on the landing gear during catapult ops, wondering how much weight it would take to make a Bee catapult-able. I was thinking in terms of a USS America class ship being able to throw Bee's into the air with more gross weight, and then they would vertically recover. Or you could possibly put Bees on a CVN. Needless to say, I was shot down in short order. You get used to it. Just be polite. Search is your friend.

Even if they could mount a catapult on the right hand side (or possibly left hand side) of the ski ramp on a QE-class... how are you going to recover Cee's or other aircraft? QE doesn't have an angled flight deck. And I'm not sure there is enough room to "angle" a recover area on it, let alone install arresting gear. FWIW.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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