UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

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spazsinbad

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Unread post12 Sep 2011, 05:46

Good Hornet Night Carrier Approach Video Snippet from Pilot Perspective (over shoulder - not HUD).
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HornetNightApproach-.wmv [ 1.46 MiB | Viewed 78297 times ]

RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post12 Sep 2011, 23:22

WELL, Well, well... 'Allo, Allo, Allo... Even before whatever review was being carried out to decide 'cats/traps' stuff for CVF due next year we have this news - must be next year now I guess? I dunno. UK just make up stuff as they go (see thread title).

UK carrier to receive second EMALS production shipset, Fox confirms By Peter Felstead 9/12/2011

{One has to be a subscriber to see more - and I ain't - so once again - I dunno nuffink. One might ask what is a shipset? 4 individual EMALS sets for 1 CVN? However text as seen says "POW & THE British carrier" thus implying only enough for 1 CVF wot is probably only 2 EMALS if previous predictions about number of CVF catapults is realised - details, details.}

http://www.janes.com/products/janes/def ... 1065930314

"The second production shipset of the Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System (EMALS) being developed by General Atomics for the US Navy's upcoming Gerald R Ford-class aircraft carriers will be fitted to Prince of Wales, the British Queen Elizabeth (QE)-class carrier that will be configured for the F-35C carrier variant (CV) Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), the UK Defence Secretary has confirmed.

Speaking to Jane's in the run-up to the Defence Security and Equipment International (DSEi) exhibition, held in London from 13-16 September, Dr Liam Fox said: "We now have a slot for the EMALS catapult system being fitted. It will be fitted first of all to the Gerald R Ford , then the next slot will be for the British carrier and the next slot will be for the American John F Kennedy carrier. So we've got that confirmed from the Americans now; the Americans have successfully tested it."

The US Navy first used EMALS to launch a manned aircraft, an F/A-18E Super Hornet strike fighter, on 18 December 2010 at the Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) EMALS trials facility at Lakehurst, New Jersey."
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post16 Sep 2011, 01:10

Should start an 'F-35C Night Carrier Landing' thread I suppose but anyway...

http://www.sldinfo.com/wp-content/uploa ... ations.pdf
OR
The Distributed Aperture System:
http://www.sldinfo.com/?p=12819
&
http://www.sldinfo.com/?p=10198

"Second Line of Defense [SLD] talked with Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems’ Mark Rossi about the Distributed Aperture System (DAS) on the F-35, which together with the helmet provides 360-degree situational awareness for the F-35 pilot. Mark has served as the Director of the AN/AAQ-37 Electro-Optical Distributed Aperture System (EO DAS) for the F-35 platform, having management responsibility for the product development and production of the EO DAS hardware and software....

...Rossi: The biggest problem facing DAS is the fact that it is a complete unknown to most people. But as they become more familiar with its value, they will realize just how revolutionary this system will be for the warfighter. DAS changes the game....

...The capability DAS brings to the fight, however, is new and will significantly change the way the game is played. The services have never experienced anything like the unprecedented capability provided by DAS. While pilots who have witnessed demonstrations of our capability are typically wowed by our imagery and performance metrics, few have any real idea of the magnitude of the capability they are actually receiving with the DAS system.

The key discriminator that DAS brings to JSF is full, 360-degree spherical situational awareness.

We create this bubble around the airplane where we see everything of interest, all the time, simultaneously. Spherical situational awareness will significantly change the game.

SLD: Is this a man-machine interface we’re talking about?
Rossi: Yes, but we make it easy for him. From a situational awareness point of view, the pilot does absolutely nothing. We are monitoring the world around him all the time and then differentiating and reporting things that occur in that global scene that are important to the pilot. It’s only when we determine that something important has occurred that he’ll even know anything’s going on — except, of course, for day/night imagery that is presented to him continually on his Helmet-Mounted Display (HMD) and on his panoramic cockpit display....

...SLD: How does the new helmet for the F-35 interact with the DAS?
Rossi: The DAS provides a 360-degree NavFLIR (Navigation Forward Looking Infrared) capability that is projected on the helmet display. FLIR is an archaic term because FLIR stands for forward looking infrared. We’re not forward looking; we’re everywhere looking. But it’s a term that people are familiar with so we stick with it. So if you think about it, all the information is already being collected as part of the situational awareness and missile warning modes. We simply determine the line of sight of the pilot based on his head position and process the raw image data for enhanced display on the HMD. He can basically see anywhere he turns his head — even if he is looking right through the floor of the plane because we see everything in 360-degree spherical space!

We also provide a separate video feed to the Panoramic Cockpit Display that displays a pilot-selected line of sight, at his discretion. All of this functionality replaces bulky night vision goggles that are significantly challenged in urban lighting situations. When we have demonstrated our NavFLIR capability to Navy pilots, they tend to be awestruck at the possibility of even seeing the horizon clearly, let alone seeing the carrier and its wake.

DAS is going to revolutionize night landings on aircraft carriers
...."

http://attach.high-g.net/attachments/da ... ef_287.jpg

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RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post16 Sep 2011, 03:34

oops - post deleted (JPALS USAF) too many windows open....
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Unread post17 Sep 2011, 10:46

Referencing a comment made at top of page 6 of this thread... Just to add some comparison (although F-35C performance in FCLP/Carrier Ops not officially known so far) here is an 'old' LSO view of the principal carrier landing features of the 'old' F/A-18A/B/C/D Hornet.

LANDING SIGNAL OFFICER REFERENCE MANUAL (REV. B) 1999

http://63.192.133.13/VMF-312/LSO.pdf (5.5Mb)
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RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post21 Sep 2011, 02:09

Further to '1st503rdsgt' (page 5 of this thread) quote: "...Spaz: Given that the F-35C is shackled to the requirements of the USMC and the USAF, I have little faith that its landing characteristics will be significantly better than the Hornet...."

Navy test pilot says JSF is ‘easy to fly’ By Joshua Stewart — Staff writer - Feb 20, 2011

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2011/02/n ... t-022011w/

"...Buss, who has spent nearly his entire career on F/A-18 Hornets, was the first Navy test pilot to fly both the F-35B... & F-35C... “One of the biggest things that jumps out to me is that it’s very easy to fly,” he said.
The thrust is good, and there’s no indication that the F-35 has only one engine, instead of two like on the Super Hornet, he said.
Compared to the Hornet, it seems “a bit more solid,” Buus said.
Other test pilots say the F-35 feels “stiff,” but no matter the adjective, Buus said its fly-by-wire controls and flight computers make it very responsive. The cockpit, which has its stick on the side instead of the center, is comfortable and has a large touch-screen display.
“I really like a lot of things they have done with this airplane,” he said...."
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post22 Sep 2011, 08:48

1st503rdsgt wrote: Given that the F-35C is shackled to the requirements of the USMC and the USAF, I have little faith that its landing characteristics will be significantly better than the Hornet. Besides, $hit happens in CATOBAR ops, and the F-35C is just as susceptible to circumstances as any other naval aircraft. The UK WILL need a tanker of some kind if it goes this route


The F-35C has an entirely different wing, tailplane and vertical stab than the A or the B, and its performance requirements around the ship are driven entirely by Navy knowledge and experience. Not sure how that gets it 'shackled' in some defeating way to the USAF and the Marine Corps variants.
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Unread post22 Sep 2011, 08:59

For those so-inclined, a highly commendable document for your reading pleasure ref Navy performance requirements around the ship.

http://www.dept.aoe.vt.edu/~durham/2002-71.pdf
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Unread post22 Sep 2011, 09:42

Also always a good read for similar reasons....

The Influence of Ship Configuration on the Design of the Joint Strike Fighter
by Eric S. Ryberg 26 Feb 2002

http://dodreports.com/pdf/ada399988.pdf (1Mb)

ABSTRACT
"While the implications of shipboard compatibility have long influenced the design of maritime-based aircraft, the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is unique in that the program is centered on the concurrent development of a family of highly common aircraft variants, two of which are to operate from distinctly different ship types. This procurement strategy poses a formidable challenge to the aircraft designer: How to design an air system that meets the unique needs of its multiple warfighter customers while preserving enough commonality to reap the benefits of the "family" approach to design, manufacture, and operational sustainment. This paper describes how the configurations of the United States Navy's aircraft carriers and amphibious assault ships, as well as the United Kingdom Royal Navy's INVINCIBLE-class of carriers, have
influenced the basic configurations of the catapult launch / arrested landing (CV) and the short takeoff/ vertical landing (STOVL) variants of the JSF. From these discussions, the designers of future air capable ships can better understand which characteristics of current ship designs impose the most significant constraints for the aircraft based aboard them, and where ship/air interface considerations should play."
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As well as CV NATOPS or LSO NATOPS or LSO Reference Manual PDFs online there is....

Repository of Good NavAv Stuff: http://www.robertheffley.com/docs/CV_environ/
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My collection of 'How to Deck Land Material' will be uploaded in a day or two (yeah right) :D :devil:

Speak of the devil and his chains rattle... Just now the webmaster here (adf-history) promised to update/make available any files uploaded soon - so be tuned: http://www.adf-history.com/adf/?cat=7
Last edited by spazsinbad on 23 Sep 2011, 02:43, edited 2 times in total.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post22 Sep 2011, 23:27

CVF Building Blocks start Assembly with claim about number of F-35Cs to operate (not total - only onboard):

Assembly of New Royal Navy Aircraft Carriers Gets Underway In Fife
(Source: U.K Ministry of Defence; issued September 21, 2011)

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... erway.html

"...Chief of Defence Materiel, Bernard Gray, said:

...The Queen Elizabeth Class carriers will be the centrepiece of Britain's military capability and will routinely operate 12 of the carrier-variant Joint Strike Fighter jets, allowing for unparalleled interoperability with allied forces.

Each carrier will have nine decks, plus a flight deck the size of three football pitches, and two propellers weighing 33 tonnes - nearly two-and-a-half times as heavy as a double-decker bus - driving the ship at a maximum speed of over 25 knots (46km/h)...."
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post25 Sep 2011, 22:53

Clarification that only ONE CVF will be converted but elsewhere indications have been that the other (QE first in class) may be converted after it is launched - if money available:

http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2011/09/p ... mber-2011/
from:
http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.c ... set?page=5

"Question: Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North, Conservative)
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the estimated cost of fitting cats and traps to (a) one and (b) both Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers; whether he plans to fit cats and traps to (i) HMS Queen Elizabethand (ii) HMS Prince of Wales; and if he will make a statement.

Answer: Peter Luff (Parliamentary Under Secretary of State (Defence Equipment, Support and Technology), Defence; Mid Worcestershire, Conservative)
holding answer 12 September 2011
The Strategic Defence and Security Review called for one Queen Elizabeth (QE) class aircraft carrier to be converted to operate the more capable and cost-effective carrier variant of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. The National Audit Office’s report on Carrier Strike, published on 7 July 2011, estimated the cost of converting a single carrier at £800 million to £1.2 billion, a reasonable estimate based on the maturity of information currently available. We are developing more detailed cost estimates as part of our ongoing work.

A revised design is being developed to consider the cost differences between a post-build refit of the first in class, HMS Queen Elizabeth and an in-build conversion of the second, HMS Prince of Wales. On current plans, we expect to take firm decisions on the optimum conversion solution for the operational carrier in late 2012."
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post26 Sep 2011, 01:26

False alarm about availability of the 'how to deck land' PDF. sigh... :roll: Links don't work - webmaster informed. Maybe later this site will work with complete 2GB file:

http://www.adf-history.com/adf/?p=73
OR
Meanwhile this SkyDrive site has same file but in 20 downloadable segments that can be reassembled etc.: Look in the "'How to Deck Land’ Sept 2011 PDF 2GBs Total" folder

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=cbcd63d6 ... 07E6%21223
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post28 Sep 2011, 04:18

Have figured out why the 'adf-history.com' website links do not work but I cannot change the links on the page - only the webmaster can do that and he has gone walkabout. So to specifically download the 2GB PDF about how to deck land (same as the 2GB PDF at 'SkyDrive' above - just right mouse click to 'save target as' this URL (if you left click the PDF will start to download inside the PDF which may stop at some point - wasting your download. If you do use this method successfully [not recommended] then don't forget to 'SAVE AS' the PDF!):

http://www.adf-history.com/2011files/Ho ... p_2011.pdf [2GB] Right Mouse Click to 'Save target as...'
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UPDATE: Latest links work: http://www.adf-history.com/adf/?cat=7

Sadly the older links - especially to the A4G Skyhawk Video DVD Ops onboard HMAS Melbourne still does not work although the files are there somewhere. I'll get the webmaster to fix the older links soonest. Meantime the SkyDrive website has it (in many parts):

https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=cbcd63d6 ... 07E6%21244
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post02 Oct 2011, 08:12

This website 'HowDeckLand' [see above] working 'proper' now: http://www.adf-history.com/adf/?cat=7
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post04 Oct 2011, 00:23

I'm guessing have F-35Cs from USN cross-decking semi-permanently is one way for the UK to reduce own F-35C buy. And on the day the F-35B first lands aboard USS Wasp the Brits had to have something to deflect attention from that event. sigh :twisted:

UK planes to fly from US carrier Craig Woodhouse, Political Reporter 3 Oct 2011

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/ ... carrier.do

"Brtain [sic] could share an aircraft carrier with America under radical proposals being floated by ministers.

UK and US planes could operate jointly off the ship which would allow Britain to keep both of its new aircraft carriers rather than sell one.

Britain could still continue with its plans to co-ordinate with France over refitting carriers to ensure that one of the European fleet is always in service...."
LESS at the JUMP!
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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