UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

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lookieloo

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Unread post08 Jun 2015, 06:28

spazsinbad wrote:
Work to start on new base
07 Jun 2015 SANDEEP SINGH GREWAL

"WORK is due to start on a new British naval base in Bahrain that aims to deter regional threats and maintain security in the Gulf and wider region.

UK Foreign Secretary Phillip Hammond signed a memorandum of understanding with Bahrain's government in December to set up a permanent naval base here.

It is expected to accommodate Britain's new Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers and Type 45 destroyers...."

Source: http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/NewsDeta ... yid=403446
I rather like the idea of Britain taking a carrier rotation from us every now and then. East of Suez baby!
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35_aoa

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Unread post08 Jun 2015, 07:23

lookieloo wrote:I rather like the idea of Britain taking a carrier rotation from us every now and then. East of Suez baby!


As do I
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neurotech

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Unread post08 Jun 2015, 18:07

lookieloo wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:
Work to start on new base
07 Jun 2015 SANDEEP SINGH GREWAL

"WORK is due to start on a new British naval base in Bahrain that aims to deter regional threats and maintain security in the Gulf and wider region.

UK Foreign Secretary Phillip Hammond signed a memorandum of understanding with Bahrain's government in December to set up a permanent naval base here.

It is expected to accommodate Britain's new Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers and Type 45 destroyers...."

Source: http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/NewsDeta ... yid=403446
I rather like the idea of Britain taking a carrier rotation from us every now and then. East of Suez baby!

The Eastern Mediterranean and Arabian Gulf isn't really blue water ops

The USN has used the smaller LHDs for maintaining the "carrier" presence in the Med. Its likely this will happen more in the next few years. Most other countries would consider the LHDs as an aircraft carrier.

If the UK are concerned about the cost of the Queen Elizabeth class carriers, There is at least one Mistral class carrier going cheap. I'm pretty sure the Mistral class could handle F-35Bs. An LHD could operate with land based assets to augment their F-35Bs and MH-60s, similar to what the USN do with the EA-6Bs and EA-18Gs.

There is room in the British fleet for some KC-130J or KC-40 (737-700) tankers for providing low cost tanker support for LHD class carriers. Having a handful of large, expensive, tankers isn't as effective when supporting smaller fleets.
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neptune

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Unread post08 Jun 2015, 23:08

[quote="neurotech.. An LHD could operate with land based assets to augment their F-35Bs and MH-60s,..There is room in the British fleet for some KC-130J or KC-40 (737-700) tankers for providing low cost tanker support for LHD class carriers....[/quote]

..kinda hopin' they hold out for MV-22 (load/ range/ speed) ro/ ro tankers and MV-22 Crows Nest/ Wedgetail....... could both be mutually beneficial to the other LHA/ LHD navies. Marine/ Brits/ Spain/ French/ Italy/ Aussies/ etc., etc. :)
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spazsinbad

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Unread post08 Jun 2015, 23:38

From my reading it seems the UK Govmnt want to downsize - not upsize DEFENCE - more details on this soon from them.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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lookieloo

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Unread post09 Jun 2015, 08:57

neurotech wrote:If the UK are concerned about the cost of the Queen Elizabeth class carriers, There is at least one Mistral class carrier going cheap. I'm pretty sure the Mistral class could handle F-35Bs. An LHD could operate with land based assets to augment their F-35Bs and MH-60s, similar to what the USN do with the EA-6Bs and EA-18Gs.
Whilst I would consider the Mistrals to be elegant LHDs for the price, they aren't even close to being fixed-wing capable. They are simply too small and only one of the landing spots is even capable of bearing the F-35's weight. Also, I would argue that anything outside the UK's immediate vicinity is blue-water ops unless one wants to be utterly beholden to the whim and caprice of nations hosting supporting airbases, which would defeat the entire point of having carriers in the first place.
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weasel1962

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Unread post09 Jun 2015, 17:09

Mistral elevators only 13ton capacity, just below f-35b empty weight.
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neptune

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Unread post09 Jun 2015, 18:11

[quote="lookieloo..only one of the landing spots is even capable of bearing the F-35's weight. ...[/quote]

..from the navy stand point.."any port in a storm"... with one or two stealth/ ISR/ supersonic a/c, one or two elint type crows nest/ wedgetail a/c, etc. the strike prep that can be achieved by two or four a/c from an lhd type ship is very achieveable. ....and then the lhd with Marine totin' MV-22 equipped strike package with ro/ ro tankers (speed plus x-range)... :)
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Unread post09 Jun 2015, 23:44

Preparing to Operate Off of the HMS Queen Elizabeth: Working with the Marines at VFMAT-501
10 Jun 2015 Robbin Laird & Murielle Delaporte

"...our interview with [RAF Sqn Ldr Hugh] Nichols.

The visit to the training squadron as well as to the USS WASP the following week drove home a core point – the Brits and Marines are working closely together to stand up their separate but coordinated capabilities associated with an F-35 enabled 21st century combat force. The F-35 global enterprise is a key enabler of the use of collaborative resources.

The Brits are training at Beaufort on F-35 equipment at the base – including the simulators – as their own facilities are stood up in the UK and the squadron grows before returning to the UK to get ready to work with the HMS Queen Elizabeth.

The Brits are integrated members of the squadron and the Marine Corps and British maintainers are learning together how to adapt their specific maintenance protocols – which are different – to a common airplane. Obviously, this will play real dividends down the road in terms of being able to cross deploy at sea.

And the Brits recognized that a software upgradeable airplane requires continuous upgrade in order to stay at the leading edge. They are keeping a permanent detachment at Edwards AFB to remain engaged in the lifetime modernization envisaged for the F-35 global fleet....

...Question: What is the advantage of being here working with the Marines?
Sqn Ldr Hugh Nichols: There are many, but let us start with their sense of urgency in getting the aircraft to Initial Operating Capability.

The Marines have done a fantastic job working through previous program difficulties and have blazed a trail towards bringing this next generation capability into service. They are Marines, and if anything gets in the way, they deal with it.

Working with them will clearly ensure that we are ready for the Queen Elizabeth. And the pooling agreement is important in terms of cross learning. Our young maintainers are working with Marine Corps maintainers and they are learning to work through different procedures and protocols to learn how to maintain a common airplane.

Question: Obviously, this will yield operational advantages later as Marines fly onto your ships and vice versa. How do you see this?
Sqn Ldr Hugh Nichols: Obviously, deciding to do that is above my pay grade, but clearly you are right, we have cross-decked in the past and shaping commonalities from the outset will help us to so in the future.

The Marines could fly jets off of the Queen Elizabeth and we off the Wasp or other ships the USMC enable for F-35B use in the future.

Question: The RAF is in the throes of a modernization effort and necking down to a smaller type model series of aircraft across the board. How are you working the Typhoon-F-35 integration?
Sqn Ldr Hugh Nichols: We have already started Typhoon-F-35 integration at Edwards, with the Test and Evaluation Sqns, and it shouldn’t’ be too long before we are involved in training exercises on the East Coast....

...Question: What is the way ahead for the British presence at Beaufort?
Sqn. LDF Hugh Nichols: By 2018, we will have around 250 people here. Then in 2018 we will move the squadron to the UK. 617 Sqn will fly home in mid 2018.

17(R) Squadron will remain at Edwards. It is tasked to be involved in the ongoing operational tests as new software and new capabilities come online for the F-35 throughout its service life...."

Source: http://www.sldinfo.com/preparing-to-ope ... vfmat-501/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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spazsinbad

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Unread post18 Jun 2015, 02:32

:doh: :mrgreen: SUCKS to be BRITISH - YOUSE MISSED OUT ON THE TRAMPS by gosh golly.... NOT all the drivel quoted [BEGGARS can't be CHOOSERs eh] :devil: :roll:
US Marines
defairspace (Source: UK Ministry of Defence; issued June 16, 2015)

"...The Royal Navy’s position is as follows:
“The Royal Navy, US Navy and US Marine Corps have a long history of close cooperation to develop war fighting capability. The integration of MV22 Osprey aircraft and US Marines into HMS Ocean later this year is another opportunity to allow our forces to work together more effectively and helps to strengthen the UK-US defence partnership, which is the most advanced in the world.”

(EDITOR’S NOTE: The British government has been widely ridiculed for having invested billions of pounds to build two new, large aircraft carriers which, because of the widespread incompetence at ministerial and departmental levels, were not fitted with the “cats and tramps” needed to operate fast jets.

These ships are, basically large helicopter carriers fitted with “ski jumps” that allow them to operate STOVL fighters – in other words, only the Lockheed F-35B that the UK is acquiring at huge cost and in small numbers...."

Source: http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... riers.html
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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quicksilver

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Unread post18 Jun 2015, 02:51

They were not fitted with cats and wires because it was not affordable in the long term. "USN interests" sold them on the idea that they could capitalize on US investment already made in GRF technologies. So much for that idea.

Here we sit in 2015 and GRF is north of 12B and counting -- John McCain's new "favorite" program.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post18 Jun 2015, 03:08

RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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quicksilver

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Unread post18 Jun 2015, 03:29

Sorry, USS Gerald R. Ford, CVN-78.

EMALS and AAG...
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spazsinbad

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Unread post18 Jun 2015, 03:32

For those coming late to this now long thread here is the web page with OFFICIAL reasoning why 'cats n'flaps' and 'tramps & thieves' were not FINALLY (I'm channeling butler) selected:

Carrier Strike: The 2012 reversion decision: http://www.nao.org.uk/report/carrier-st ... -decision/

OLD RAN FAA 'SHANGHAI' (Birdie Catapult) [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghaiing & https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Slingshot] TEAM 05 April 1985 RAN Navy News Cartoon http://www.navy.gov.au/sites/default/fi ... 5-1985.pdf
Attachments
ShanghaiTEAMranRecruitingBirdieDivnCARTOON1985.gif
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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spazsinbad

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Unread post26 Jun 2015, 08:16

UK Parliament - 353 – Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft: Procurement (Answered)
05 Jun 2015 Think Defence

"Mrs Madeleine Moon
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, how many F35 fighter jets have been ordered to date; what the cost of each F35 is; when he expects delivery of each fighter jet; when he expects the F35s to be combat-ready; what the total cost of the F35 programme is; and if he will make a statement.

Mr Philip Dunne
To date the UK has ordered eight F-35B aircraft. Three of these aircraft have been delivered and five are currently being manufactured. The UK continues to procure F-35B Lightning II aircraft via a rolling programme of contracts coherently to build the capability towards achieving an Initial Operating Capability from land in 2018 and an initial Carrier Strike Capability in 2020. The overall number of aircraft will be considered as part of the Strategic Defence and Security Review later this year. The Department does not release detailed breakdowns of expenditure, or future cost estimates as to do so would undermine its commercial position."

Source: http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2015/06/3 ... -answered/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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