UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

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spazsinbad

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Unread post24 May 2015, 09:37

E-2D 36 page booklet as above reprinted (PRN) into a much smaller file size 36 page booklet - the magic of ACROBAT....
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E-2D_information_bookletPRNpp36.pdf
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RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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popcorn

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Unread post24 May 2015, 10:37

Thanks, got it. Re radar, appears to be a mechanical-electronic hybrid, no mention of AESA.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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spazsinbad

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Unread post24 May 2015, 10:51

Depending on how one counts pages on page numbered four (or the fifth page) there is this illustration:

I'll post page numbered ten (or the eleventh page) illustration next:

Then page numbered seven (or the eighth page):
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AESAradarE-2DadvancedHawkeye.gif
E-2DradarSystem.gif
E-2DadvancedConfiguration.gif
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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popcorn

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Unread post24 May 2015, 11:19

spazsinbad wrote:Depending on how one counts pages on page numbered four (or the fifth page) there is this illustration:

I'll post page numbered ten (or the eleventh page) illustration next:

Then page numbered seven (or the eighth page):

My bad, missed that... paging resident radarguru hornetfinn .. :D
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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hornetfinn

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Unread post25 May 2015, 09:23

popcorn wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:Depending on how one counts pages on page numbered four (or the fifth page) there is this illustration:

I'll post page numbered ten (or the eleventh page) illustration next:

Then page numbered seven (or the eighth page):

My bad, missed that... paging resident radarguru hornetfinn .. :D


Oh, thank you... :)

Well, E-2D does have AESA radar but it also uses mechanical-electronic drive to rotate the antenna. It just replaces the PESA antenna used in earlier E-2 versions with AESA antenna. Using 360 degree antenna would be possible but that would either greatly increase power, cooling and processing power requirements or significantly reduce radar output power and thus range. Using rotating antenna also makes the antenna much cheaper as the number of expensive transmit-receive modules is much smaller. Of course the downside is the need for using mechanical rotating drive (possible mechanical failures and increased maintenance needs). It also reduces the track refresh rates as it's fixed to rotating antenna. I think the relatively small size of E-2 Hawkeye made it necessary to use this design approach and of course the aerodynamics remained the same using the same rotodome.
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Unread post25 May 2015, 09:31

To add, using AESA antenna greatly improves range, sensitivity to small targets, makes enemy ESM/ECM much more difficult and improves clutter performance. It also improves reliability and maintainability a lot.
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popcorn

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Unread post26 May 2015, 00:19

hornetfinn wrote:To add, using AESA antenna greatly improves range, sensitivity to small targets, makes enemy ESM/ECM much more difficult and improves clutter performance. It also improves reliability and maintainability a lot.

Thanks, I was a bit confused because the other site I referenced in my earlier post seemed to describe a single transmitter with multiple receivers.
http://www.deagel.com/news/ANAPY-9-Airb ... 07157.aspx

Designed and developed by Lockheed Martin, the AN/APY-9 radar features both a solid-state transmitter with higher power than its predecessor for extended range, as well as digital receivers to increase sensitivity.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post26 May 2015, 07:13

popcorn wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:To add, using AESA antenna greatly improves range, sensitivity to small targets, makes enemy ESM/ECM much more difficult and improves clutter performance. It also improves reliability and maintainability a lot.

Thanks, I was a bit confused because the other site I referenced in my earlier post seemed to describe a single transmitter with multiple receivers.
http://www.deagel.com/news/ANAPY-9-Airb ... 07157.aspx

Designed and developed by Lockheed Martin, the AN/APY-9 radar features both a solid-state transmitter with higher power than its predecessor for extended range, as well as digital receivers to increase sensitivity.


Actually, I must say I was wrong and did some additional research as there seemed something wrong with the whole thing. I must have mixed info from E-2 and E-3. So much for being a guru... :wink:

It seems like E-2D has passive phased array antenna instead of AESA antenna. Earlier E-2 versions with AN/APS-120/125/139/145 radars actually seemd to have fully mechanical antennas and not PESA antennas like E-3 has. I think it's a combination of all kinds of requirements (like range performance) and limitations (like airframe limitations, technology and money) which dictated using PESA antenna. However AEW aircraft can use large rotary-field phase shifters which have far superior performance to toroid or dual mode phase shifters used in smaller fire-control radars. They have excellent sidelobe performance and low losses. Using modern transmitter and digital receivers along with adaptive processing, radar performance will be excellent. AESA antenna could increase performance (although not as much as in fighter or other fire control radars) but that would require significant processing power increase. Maybe we'll see E-2E with AESA antenna someday... :)

Here is a good description about the system: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/cutaway-technical-description-e-2d-may-not-look-pretty-but-packs-big-new-344539/

I think the AESA radar in the E-2D information booklet is referencing to fighter radar shown in the picture. The page you are referencing is referencing to Lockheed Martin page and it also mentions a singular solid state transmitter which would mean PESA design also.
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Unread post26 May 2015, 08:35

Yes I see now how that first page of the booklet references the 'AESA' on the fighter as pointed out. Perhaps there is deliberate befuddlement because I NEED HELP! :doh: :mrgreen: See this PDF: Left mouse click on it to view it BETTA]
E-2D Advanced Hawkeye
03 Jun 2009 NG PR

"...Current mechanically scanned and pure electronically scanned radars have inherent shortcomings that limit their effectiveness and compromise their capabilities. The Advanced Hawkeye’s completely new radar merges a traditional mechanically scanned antenna with steerable electronic scanning to maximize the benefits of both technologies, while eliminating the shortcomings of either technology on its own.

It brings together high-speed processors and massive memory, sophisticated processing and tracking algorithms, exotic materials, and expandable, open architecture systems to greatly extend the range at which smaller and more maneuverable targets can be detected and tracked. Fiber optic networks and internet protocols quickly move information in the aircraft, and allow fully networked operations with other assets in the network.

the AdvAnCed hAwkeye mAximizeS detection flexiBility By ComBinAtion of A rotodome And eleCtroniCAlly SteerABle ArrAy..."

Source: http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabili ... rybook.pdf (11Mb)

& Graphic: http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabili ... _Sheet.pdf (0.5Mb)
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E-2DhawkeyeRadarModes.gif
E-2DadvancedHawkeyeDetails.gif
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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popcorn

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Unread post26 May 2015, 09:25

Thanks hornetfinn, am now unbefuddled on the Hawkeye radar. While AESA has it's strengths, there are obviously other factors in play that convinced both the USN and RN to take a different approach.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post28 May 2015, 15:37

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Unread post28 May 2015, 20:07

popcorn wrote:Thanks hornetfinn, am now unbefuddled on the Hawkeye radar. While AESA has it's strengths, there are obviously other factors in play that convinced both the USN and RN to take a different approach.
I haven't been talking, but I have been following the conversation. Who'da thought that AESA wasn't the be-all-end-all in air-defense? It would also appear that weight and cooling issues are factors to keep in mind when evaluating super-duper-uber radar claims.
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Unread post29 May 2015, 00:21

lookieloo wrote:
popcorn wrote:Thanks hornetfinn, am now unbefuddled on the Hawkeye radar. While AESA has it's strengths, there are obviously other factors in play that convinced both the USN and RN to take a different approach.
I haven't been talking, but I have been following the conversation. Who'da thought that AESA wasn't the be-all-end-all in air-defense? It would also appear that weight and cooling issues are factors to keep in mind when evaluating super-duper-uber radar claims.

In the case of the RN, i think they were being pragmatic. AFAIK the winning Thales bid would allow them to save a bunch of money and entail lower risk by retaining the existing radar and mission systems currently flying on their Sea King AEW helos and upgrade in key performance areas rather than start from scratch.. They don't have to reinvent a whole new logistics/support chain to acquire the desired capability.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post05 Jun 2015, 21:11

Usual 'shape' & 'revolutionary' scenario now applied to Brits (too much for me early in the morning here) so go to it.... Sure will be a big change for the RN and the RAF and all the rest of 'em.
The New UK Aircraft Carrier: Reshaping the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force
02 Jun 2015 Robbin Laird

"The Royal Navy (RN) is returning the large deck carrier business after many years absence. This means that the RN while shaping the concepts of operations for it new carrier and the RAF for the new carrier air wing, the two services are not constrained by the immediate past. They are reinventing their approach to carrier airpower; not reshaping its carriers to deal simply with the addition of new aircraft to the carrier air deck, as is the US Navy....

...And for the RAF moving from a land-based mentality and the use of legacy aircraft will require a leap into operating a “fifth generation enabled carrier” and finding ways to integrate that capability within the overall air combat profile of the RAF. In other words, it is not just about adding a ship or adding an aircraft. It is about significant cultural change and the overall transformation of UK forces to a 21st Century paradigm of operations....

...Question: Could we return to the challenge of adaptation posed by the carrier to the RN. How do you view this challenge?
Alcock: In part it is about the carrier; and in part is about the F-35. A core challenge is to get the RN understand what fifth generation is all about. Do we understand what 5th gen means? Do we understand what the carrier can do? Do we understand how type 45 or new type 26 will integrate into the MTG and what we can then bring to other coalition partners? That is where the hard work is going to come and actually getting that out to people to incorporate in their operations and train and exercise the capability. We clearly face a challenge in bringing the various strands of innovation and transformation together into the operational crescendo necessary to make the MTF fully effective.

Question: A number of British allies are in throes of change as well, ranging from the Aussies to Italians. Clearly, you are bringing a powerful evolving template to the process of shaping 21st century combat approaches. You’re part of the club trying to figure out how to do combat differently moving forward in the 21st century. Does that make sense?
Walker: It does. That is one of the strengths which comes from the various working groups we have within MoD and with core allies. We can both learn and contribute to the overall learning process for coalition partners....

Source: http://www.sldinfo.com/the-new-uk-aircr ... air-force/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post07 Jun 2015, 10:01

Work to start on new base
07 Jun 2015 SANDEEP SINGH GREWAL

"WORK is due to start on a new British naval base in Bahrain that aims to deter regional threats and maintain security in the Gulf and wider region.

UK Foreign Secretary Phillip Hammond signed a memorandum of understanding with Bahrain's government in December to set up a permanent naval base here.

It is expected to accommodate Britain's new Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers and Type 45 destroyers...."

Source: http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/NewsDeta ... yid=403446
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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