UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

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spazsinbad

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Unread post07 Oct 2020, 00:40

HMS Queen Elizabeth: Images win Royal Navy photographic award 07 Oct 2020 BBC
https://www.bbc.com/news/in-pictures-54420134

PHOTO Example: https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/4AB6/production/_114762191_797be6a2-0c0c-46fa-8544-4836c54de4db.jpg
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Unread post16 Oct 2020, 01:16

Lots of hubba-hubba ship photos as well at: https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/hms-qu ... t-warrior/
HMS Queen Elizabeth and carrier strike group participate in exercise Joint Warrior 15 Oct 2020 SaveTheRoyalNavy

Back in the game - Flying the F-35 from HMS Queen Elizabeth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIroDPghWF4


Photo: "500lb GBU-12 Laser Guided Bombs are loaded onto a UK jet on the carrier. Subsequently, Commando Wildcat pilots of 847 NAS conducted the first live UK FAC(A) control of an F-35, guiding the bombs onto the Cape Wrath range." https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/wp-con ... -Bombs.jpg
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Unread post21 Oct 2020, 00:35

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Unread post25 Oct 2020, 03:06

Wot dis fred title is all about: UK F-35B/C muddle in retrospect as it affected the USMC purchase/development of F-35Bs.
USMC Deployment Onboard HMS Queen Elizabeth: The Partnership Which Almost Did Not Happen
18 Oct 2020 Robbin Laird

"In this September 23, 2020 story published by 3rd Marie Aircraft Wing, the historic deployment of USMC F-35Bs onboard the UK’s largest warship ever built by the UK was highlighted.... [ https://www.marines.mil/News/News-Displ ... on-vessel/ ]

... looking back, this partnership almost did not happen. 10 years ago this month, the UK government announced that they were pulling out from the F-35B program to buy F-35Cs, and to redesign their new carriers to use catapults, namely, the new electronic catapults planned by the US Navy for the USS Ford class.

As part of the UK’s 2010 strategic review, the government committed to rebuilding their new carriers to enable “cats and traps” as the launch mechanism, and the purchase of F-35Cs versus F-35Bs.

This decision left the USMC in a very difficult situation within the Pentagon at the time, ramping up pressure on their F-35B purchases. Suggestive of the position the UK decision to move to the C versus the B put the Marines in is found in the analysis in this March 26, 2011 article by Robert F. Dorr: [ https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/sto ... irst-time/ ]...

...As Lt. General (Retired) George Trautman put it today: “Within days of the UK decision, the Commandant and I found ourselves in a fight for the mere existence of the F-35B. “The program’s opponents in the US Navy, OSD and Congress, urged on by a false narrative from industry, were almost gleeful that we appeared to be isolated. “Thankfully, we were able to defend the program and my prediction that the UK would return to STOVL turned out to be right just two years later.”

Now there are several F-35B users globally, with the prospect of others, precisely for the reason the USMC bought it, namely, deployment flexibility.

Lt. General (Retired) George Trautman added to his comment made today (October 18, 2020): “Today, the unique capabilities of the F-35B are widely recognized and the aircraft has been embraced by a growing number of nations... [then a history lesson in WWII Sea Wars]

...This global ocean war created a tactical and technology partnership between the US Navy and Royal Navy that continues strong to this day. After the war, with the advent of jet engines and the growth of aircraft carries into “super carriers,” the relationship was deepened.

The contribution of the Royal Navy is heard in every cockpit coming on board a USN carrier on every landing “Meat Ball — Line-up — Angel of Attack” is the scan pattern all USN/USMC Carrier Pilots. That mantra is taught from day one on a Naval Aviators quest to successfully Carrier Qual (CQ) in order to receive their Navy Wings of Gold and join a squadron ready for sea duty. This lifesaving mantra is built on several design gifts given to the US Navy by the Royal Navy.

Centering the “meat ball” puts the aircraft on a perfect glide slope for an “OK-3 wire” the code for a perfect trap. Calling -the “meat ball” to the LSO, along with fuel state, is possible because of the evolution of the fresnel lens which the British pioneered for their early jet carrier operations.

“Line-up.” adjusting for the centerline, is now targeted to align with an angled deck. That design added a huge margin of safety. The angle deck also greatly aided efficient operations during flight quarters effectively to cycle Carrier Air Group (CAG) aircraft into an effective unified airborne fighting force.

Finally, checking the ” Angle Of Attack” is an easy and fail safe indicator of having sufficient and safe airspeed to come aboard. [very helpful to USAF pilots landing to check their airspeed also]

The British also designed the “hurricane bow” because a modern carrier must be sea worthy from the Arctic to the Equator with the ability to operate in all weather, day and night. Sea worthiness against a “cruel sea” is critical and the British got it right as Carrier Aviation transitioned from props to jets. Finally, thanks again to the Royal Navy for steam catapults to give added energy for a successful carrier take off of high performance jets.

It is fair to say that operating day or night, in all weather from ice to tropics, a modern aircraft carrier is one of the most complex engineering achievements of any society. It transports thousands of sailors across all oceans, escorted by support ships and aircraft — all with a mission to project power. 4.5 Acres of sovereign US airfield capable of 30+ knots going into harms way is a significant combat asset.... [then more repeat words than I can deal with at one go but with goodness]

...The F-35B reverses the relationship between pre-defined operational bases and the aircraft. The aircraft no longer constrains the definition of an airfield. The sortie rate of an F-35 aircraft is more than just rearm and “gas and go.” It is continuity of operations with each aircraft linking in and out as they turn and burn without losing situational awareness. This can all be done in locations that can come as a complete tactical surprise –the F-35B sortie rate action reaction cycle has an add dimension of unique and unexpected basing thus getting inside an opponent’s OODA (Observe, Orient, Decide and Act) loop….." [ends here but more later?]

Source: https://sldinfo.com/2020/10/usmc-deploy ... ot-happen/
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Unread post05 Nov 2020, 20:12

UK, USMC describe ‘seamless' Queen Elizabeth integration for F-35B
05 Nov 2020 Gareth Jennings

"The commanders of both the UK and US Marine Corps (USMC) Lockheed Martin F-35B Lightning units recently embarked aboard HMS Queen Elizabeth have described the “seamless” integration of their respective personnel and machines on their inaugural training deployment and exercises earlier this year.

Speaking to Janes and other defence media on 5 November, Commander Mark Sparrow of the UK’s 617 ‘Dambusters’ Squadron and Lieutenant Colonel Joseph Freshour of the USMC’s Marine Fighter Attack Squadron (VMFA) 211 ‘The Wake Island Avengers’ noted the success of the joint exercises that included the embarkation of 15 F-35Bs from the Royal Navy’s newest aircraft carrier.

“We really gelled well as two units. We worked instinctively together on the ship, and the proof of the pudding of that is what we achieved – we went from [the previous maximum of] four jets to 15 on the deck...."

Photo: "A UK F-35B in the hover prior to landing aboard HMS Queen Elizabeth while a USMC aircraft taxies along the flight deck. The commanders of both 617 Squadron and VFMA 211 described the recent joint training mission as being ‘seamless’ between them. (Crown Copyright)" https://www.janes.com/images/default-so ... i-8848.jpg


Source: https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... -for-f-35b
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Unread post06 Nov 2020, 12:55

As much as I love the C, I think the Brits made the right choice going with the B. It's not as capable as the C on several fronts, but foregoing cat shot/wire trap equipment had to save a lot of $. The B will incur less wear and tear, and if they had to they could take it ashore to support ground troops. And there's a high likelihood they won't be fighting solo but rather, as part of a coalition with their B's integrating well with USMC F-35's.

Imagine though, a Falklands II where British fixed wing aviation is almost non-existent. Typhoons might not be around to help with air to air work, the B will have to take care of business - all by its lonesome. Fortunately it appears that it can more than hold its own..
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Unread post06 Nov 2020, 13:13

"IMAGINE Falklands II"? Yes one would have to IMAGINE a lot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_Air_Force
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Unread post06 Nov 2020, 16:54

spazsinbad wrote:"IMAGINE Falklands II"? Yes one would have to IMAGINE a lot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_Air_Force


A-4's and Pucaras against F-35B's and Typhoons, LoL :mrgreen:

This would be the same as watching a boxing match between a child and a heavyweight champion! :wink:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post06 Nov 2020, 19:12

Fairly confident the fighters they have in the hangars have done very little flying compared to the 1982, as well as condition of mission systems and missiles is probably shabby as well.

The Brits recently blocked the sale of KAI T-50 to Argentina, but I think that was a wrong move. One day China decides to get a nice and cozy naval base in the Atlantic, and will willingly bargain a squadron or two of perfectly good fighters in exchange for basing rights. Btw Argentina launched a couple of sattelited on a Chinese rocket just yesterday. Makes one think.
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Unread post06 Nov 2020, 21:08

The Argentina Air Force during the Falkland conflict was well-trained and highly-motivated. They suffered an appalling rate of loss and literally fought to the last Exocet missile. Flying Skyhawks at low altitude attacking enemy ship with iron bombs and guns requires skill and will of steel. They lost because they had no way dealing with those some 20 Harriers. What if those 2 Exocets went into HMS Invincible instead of SS Atlantic Conveyor? Things could easily go the other way.

And what is the use of an airbase on the Argentine soil to China? To prevent the US carriers passing Strait of Magellan? To defend Chinese interests on Antarctica? If I truely want to poke the US in the eye, I'd base fighters in Cuba or Venezuela, to mess about as close to the US coast as possible.
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Unread post06 Nov 2020, 21:18

zhangmdev wrote:The Argentina Air Force during the Falkland conflict was well-trained and highly-motivated. They suffered an appalling rate of loss and literally fought to the last Exocet missile. Flying Skyhawks at low altitude attacking enemy ship with iron bombs and guns requires skill and will of steel. They lost because they had no way dealing with those some 20 Harriers.
.



its the kind of elite and well trained group that lost soundly to not even 2 dozen enemy aircraft, namely subsonic "thats just an airshow trick jet/STOVL is a waste" harriers.

What if those 2 Exocets went into HMS Invincible instead of SS Atlantic Conveyor? Things could easily go the other way.


not really, they just lose more slowly. do you have any Luftwaffe46 fan fiction? I like these kinds of stories .
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Unread post06 Nov 2020, 21:37

Losses would have been higher to the Harrier except Harriers armed with the ridiculously high
Pk AIM-9L were frequently instructed to disengage so that the meh Pk Sea Slug/Dart/Wolf could engage.

Many kills were lost in this fashion.

I'm assuming the Chinese are interested in offshore oil exploration in and around Argentina.
Specifically, the Malvinas Basin.
Last edited by marauder2048 on 06 Nov 2020, 21:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post06 Nov 2020, 21:41

zhangmdev wrote:What if those 2 Exocets went into HMS Invincible instead of SS Atlantic Conveyor? Things could easily go the other way.


They (the Brits) still had the HMS Hermes. Actually the HMS Hermes was the flagship of the British fleet bound to the Falkland Island in 1982.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post06 Nov 2020, 21:58

spazsinbad wrote:"IMAGINE Falklands II"? Yes one would have to IMAGINE a lot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_Air_Force

IMAGINE? I FORGOT THE FUD! IF ONLY....
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Unread post11 Nov 2020, 02:45

Marine F-35 Squadron Details Training Deployment Aboard HMS Queen Elizabeth
10 Nov 2020 Mallory Shelbourne

"This week a squadron of Marine F-35B Lightning II Joint Strike Fighters wrapped up nearly two months of training aboard the U.K. Royal Navy HMS Queen Elizabeth (R08), paving the way for U.S. and U.K. fighters to operate interchangeably when the British aircraft carrier leaves on its first deployment.

The “Wake Island Avengers” of Marine Fighter Attack Squadron (VMFA) 211 and the Royal Air Force’s 617 Squadron “The Dambusters” used the recent drills to demonstrate the countries can seamlessly fight and maintain the F-35Bs from the carrier.

During a recent interview with USNI News, VMFA-211 commanding officer Lt. Col. Joseph Freshour detailed how the squadrons flew combinations of aircraft, shared parts and performed integrated maintenance throughout the last few weeks.... ...For the last several weeks, the U.S. and U.K squadrons have been conducting flight operations off Queen Elizabeth during drills that allowed the two nations to test both the interoperability and the interchangeability they are striving for between navies.

“On day one, we arrived and between the two squadrons put 14 aircraft and subsequently 15 aircraft when the last jet arrived from the U.K., which is nothing like they’d ever been able to practice,” Freshour said. “So I think that’s where the biggest learning and growing took place, was pushing the flight deck and getting the flight deck prepared for what the deployment will look like in that size and scope of aircraft.”

With a total of 15 aircraft – 10 F-35Bs from VMFA-211 and five from RAF 617 – the squadrons used the recent Crimson Warrior and Group Exercise both to practice flight operations and maintenance procedures. For example, if the U.S. squadron needed a part for its aircraft, it could temporarily use a part from the U.K. and then switch out the part for a U.S. one later on.

“What was really neat is the digital side of it. So when you switch a part from their side to our side in [Autonomic Logistics Information System], that actually was quite seamless and went really well,” Freshour said. “Because that could be a big hindrance to the execution of that – that install of that part. So that was actually a really nice point to learn, is that we were capable of doing that and it went as planned.”...

...Maj. Christopher Brandt, the VMFA-211 executive officer who was on the 13th MEU deployment, told USNI News that the recent exercises helped American Marines train in weather they’re not accustomed to.

“I think operating in the weather that the U.K. has is a lot different for – our pilots are used to operating around Yuma, which is sunny, you know, 360 days out of the year,” Brandt said. “So I think just that flight experience – along with the experience of the deck crew, like [Freshour] was talking about on the actual ship, as well as the personnel in the tower running the tower operations – I think is a huge thing to build on for when the actual deployment comes around in the spring.”

Unlike American aircraft carriers, Queen Elizabeth is equipped with a ramp from which the F-35Bs can take off. Brandt and Freshour said that while the ramp necessitates slight adjustments, taking off from the British carrier was not all that different from how the Marines operate off of American amphibious ships without the ramp.

“I think it was much simpler to take off from the ramp – a little less procedures for the actual pilot in the cockpit to do,” Brandt said.

“You can take off from a shorter distance just due to the aerodynamics that the ramp is providing. There’s a little bit of a wind difference that – it has some different wind effects, just the way the wind blows around that ramp. But other than that, I don’t think there’s a whole lot of significant difference. So I think it was pretty easy to go from the LHD to the Queen Elizabeth for most of our pilots.”

Freshour, who had participated in pre-qualifications aboard the USS Essex (LHD-2) before the operations on Queen Elizabeth but was not deployed with the 13th MEU, said the aircraft has an automatic takeoff ability that can operate from the ramp on the British carrier or the flat deck of the American amphibious assault ships.

“You would start from that point on the ship lined up with the ramp and literally just take off and let the jet fly itself away,” Freshour said. “It recognizes the type of takeoff programs and the appropriate control laws and then does everything else for you.”...

...Before the recent carrier operations, the Marines trained on simulators both in Yuma, Ariz., and Royal Air Force Marham. Brandt said VMFA-211 began training in the simulators at Yuma over the summer ahead of the travel to the U.K.

“Essentially for someone who’s never done it before, you’ll go through at least two normal day [carrier-landing] sims, which are an hour and a half to two hours long, two of the night sims, and then essentially EP simmer – emergency procedures simulator where we just throw jet malfunctions or aircraft malfunctions while operating at the ship,” Brandt said. “So the simulator does a really nice job of simulating the actual ship environment and then the actual feel of the aircraft. So I think every pilot would attest that they felt pretty prepared for the first time they actually flew the aircraft on.”..." [more at the JUMP probably best read all at the URL below]

Source: https://news.usni.org/2020/11/10/marine ... -elizabeth
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