UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

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spazsinbad

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Unread post26 Mar 2014, 23:23

Slide the Cs arsebackwards down the STOVL ski jump? For all the Cs in the world they need - NOT. :devil: BeeKneeS tiz for dem.
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Unread post28 Mar 2014, 14:56

Carrier countdown begins with just 100 days until HMS Queen Elizabeth is named 26 March 2014

"...Work under way right now includes fitting one of the two aircraft lifts – capable not just of moving Lightning II jets from the hangar to the flight deck and back but powerful enough to lift the entire ship’s company – and completing the part of the aft island from where flight deck operations will be controlled.

Between now and July 4 – three days shy of the fifth anniversary of the carrier being laid down – the second aircraft lift will be installed, the propeller shafts completed, the integrity of the hull tested to prevent water coming in and, equally importantly, the ship will be painted the Royal Navy’s trademark grey – she’s currently a mix of cream, grey and a reddish brown....

...At 65,000 tonnes, the ship will be three times the size of the current generation of Invincible-class carriers – and one and a half times larger than Britain’s last traditional carrier, HMS Ark Royal, which paid off in the late 1970s....

CAPTION: "A comparison of HMS Queen Elizabeth (bottom) with the American super-carrier USS Nimitz, whose flight deck is only half an acre larger than Britain's future flagship" https://navynews.co.uk/assets/upload/fi ... 26ax-2.jpg & https://navynews.co.uk/assets/upload/fi ... 26ax-3.jpg

SOURCE: https://navynews.co.uk/archive/news/item/10195
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Unread post28 Mar 2014, 23:06

Strange arrangement in front to the starboard of the ramp. There's no room to get the front plane out unless you move all of the ones behind it first, so the natural result is bound to be that some planes sit unused while the same other ones get used over and over every time, unless they go out of their way to avoid that by occasionally pulling out ALL of the planes from the front and shuffling them around just to put them back in a different order!
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Unread post28 Mar 2014, 23:53

The usual fit of aircraft will be a dozen by all reports to date with an obvious surge ability to more as required. Moving 12 aircraft around this humungous deck will be a doddle indeed. The first overhead deck graphic with a dozen F-35Bs on deck gives a better idea of the more usual complement of aircraft. Moving aircraft will be made easier by the cart being used (rather than a mob of 'deck handlers' as in days of yore). The 'dance of aircraft' is ongoing on any carrier deck/hangar - hence the USN have an 'OUIJA Board' for the musical chairs required with the music never stopping and never enough chairs. I jest. CVNs have not an overflow of aircraft these days so their task of re-arranging is made much easier.

Nevertheless what you describe is not going to happen? Why - because aircraft will fly if they are serviceable with hours being allocated to ensure even wear and tear as much as possible. Moving aircraft on a carrier deck is just part of the scenery. On CVF this task will be done with a minimum of manpower numbers and effort - deliberately. Aircraft that have more than enough hours or are U/S (unserviceable) will perhaps claim the most hard to reach spot until they are struck down below for repair or a well deserved rest. :D

Remember the lifts are huge - there are two with the capacity to carry two F-35Bs apiece. The hangars are huge. Everything is 'huge' by comparison to anything the Brits have known for donkey ages. It is sheer looxury all of the space available for moving aircraft with the minimum effort with judicious planning that always takes place for any carrier deck/hangar space according to requirements.

BTW aircraft are not moved for the sake of it; except when entering / leaving harbour when dress ship required, or that special overhead photo of everything looking tiddly tidy. Otherwise a carrier deck is what it is at any given moment, according to requirements, with much aforethought and planning going into it all the time.
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Unread post29 Mar 2014, 00:15

Another nice feature - when ALIS is working - will be that the state of the aircraft is known before coming aboard, from some distance away - giving the OUIJA Boarders more time to do their magic arrangements of aircraft. Any minor repairs will be handled expeditiously with advance notice. I'll imagine things will be very different for everyone with the F-35B/Cs onboard.

Sadly the same nice but out of date graphics are recycled endlessly. For example the F-35B will be in STOVL mode for takeoff. There will be no Jet Blast Deflector - not required and found to be irrelevant many years ago - but the graphics makers have not been re-employed to fix/update said graphics.
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Unread post29 Mar 2014, 02:39

OLd SKooL deck Shuffle (for the ShuffleBoarders) - problem? Wot? :devil:
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Unread post29 Mar 2014, 02:57

I think delvo's point is valid though. That space beside the ramp is not going to be very efficient. Can't see the last spots being used unless every other spot is full. The picture of the old carrier shows plenty of space to pull a mule in front the aircraft, while that's not really feasible for 2-3 ramp-side parking spots on the Liz. Not to mention keeping the aircraft away from the spray over the bow will go a ways towards preventing salt accumulation on the aircraft.
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Unread post29 Mar 2014, 03:23

What you both are discussing is a graphic - made by a clueless likely graphic artist. I will guess the scale is correct but as has been suggested the aircraft are not likely to be spotted in those positions unless absolutely necessary. As stated the usual number will be a dozen with a bunch of mixed helos. Fly One is the usual name for the starboard bow position. I'll post a MELBOURNE FLY ONE photo soonish. Navy Aircraft Deck Handlers are adroit at moving aircraft safely around the deck. When planned correctly it is not so much a problem as you appear to imagine. Salt spray? Puhleese. This is the navy - the aircraft are covered with all kinds of spray and pollution particles that will need to be washed off as per the recent West Coast briefing but otherwise the stealth is designed for the sea and the airforces of this planet will benefit from that aspect.

Think now - if two or three of the aircraft are not parked in Fly One as shown but distributed elsewhere - does the sea move or the ship or both?

I'm not pretending the situation seen below is analogous to the CVF - graphic. However these photos illustrate the skill of people manipulating machines around small spaces regularly. It could be eye-watering initially to see aircraft chained so close together (separately) that the ship moving would bring them even closer together against the taut metal chains so that only literally a few inches made the difference. Park your aircraft in Fly One at night and you just have to have eaten your carrots that day. :devil:

Back to the CVF. I like the way one illustration has some second guessing that this is the way things will be in real life. Rest assured the 'deck spotting work' (how to arrange aircraft in any situation imaginable in any numbers possible) has been occupying brilliant minds for some time now. There are stories about this online that have not made it here - probably the RN Navy News would be one place to start.
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Unread post29 Mar 2014, 03:48

Just for the heck of it a possible comparison between MELBOURNE and ENTERPRISE back in the day. Look at all that razzle dazzle on show on the BIG E! Crikey. :mrgreen:
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Unread post29 Mar 2014, 06:47

Cute little ship :D

Vires acquirit eundo in English It gains strength by going / as it goes. (Virgil)
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Unread post30 Mar 2014, 12:33

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Unread post01 Apr 2014, 04:18

I'll find the URL to the original UK Navy News illustration below soonish. To me it looks like a realistic deck park with the aircraft ranged in ways mentioned already on the SRVL thread for example (rear ends in the Wind FWD making a wider landing lane). This rotating makes for more convenient, easier parking forward in Fly One also as illustrated.
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Unread post01 Apr 2014, 06:18

Royal Navy - Navy News - July 2010 is the online graphic location on pages 54-55. This site is slow so be patient. The PDF attached is a two page spread of the CVF cutaway drawing (partly reproduced above) on one page. Zoom in to see details.

(RN) Navy News July 2010 pp 54-55: http://content.yudu.com/A1ob8a/navynews ... s.co.uk%2F
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Unread post01 Apr 2014, 07:13

spazsinbad wrote:
Carrier countdown begins with just 100 days until HMS Queen Elizabeth is named 26 March 2014

"...Work under way right now includes fitting one of the two aircraft lifts – capable not just of moving Lightning II jets from the hangar to the flight deck and back but powerful enough to lift the entire ship’s company – and completing the part of the aft island from where flight deck operations will be controlled.

Between now and July 4 – three days shy of the fifth anniversary of the carrier being laid down – the second aircraft lift will be installed, the propeller shafts completed, the integrity of the hull tested to prevent water coming in and, equally importantly, the ship will be painted the Royal Navy’s trademark grey – she’s currently a mix of cream, grey and a reddish brown....

...At 65,000 tonnes, the ship will be three times the size of the current generation of Invincible-class carriers – and one and a half times larger than Britain’s last traditional carrier, HMS Ark Royal, which paid off in the late 1970s....

CAPTION: "A comparison of HMS Queen Elizabeth (bottom) with the American super-carrier USS Nimitz, whose flight deck is only half an acre larger than Britain's future flagship" https://navynews.co.uk/assets/upload/fi ... 26ax-2.jpg & https://navynews.co.uk/assets/upload/fi ... 26ax-3.jpg

SOURCE: https://navynews.co.uk/archive/news/item/10195



The Queen Elizabeth maybe smaller than the Nimitz Class. Yet, the former could easily operate 40 F-35B's vs 20 F-35C and 20 F/A-18E/F Super Hornets! Of course the US Super Carrier has better support aircraft like the Hawkeye. Yet, based purely on striking power. The Queen Elizabeth may very well have the edge! :twisted:
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Unread post01 Apr 2014, 08:19

Corsair1963 wrote:The Queen Elizabeth maybe smaller than the Nimitz Class. Yet, the former could easily operate 40 F-35B's vs 20 F-35C and 20 F/A-18E/F Super Hornets! Of course the US Super Carrier has better support aircraft like the Hawkeye. Yet, based purely on striking power. The Queen Elizabeth may very well have the edge! :twisted:
Well, technically, the Nimitz can cram on a lot more TACAIR than that in a pinch; but it is interesting to note that the QEs will carry the more VLO airframes for quite some time (as will USMC amphibs). Rule Britannia!
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