Pressure increases on [Canada] to stay or leave F-35 program

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spazsinbad

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Unread post11 Jul 2020, 14:44

For youse posterior - oops I mean posterity - attached below is a 7 page (could make it 6 butt whatever) PDF of article.
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SAAB Made in Canada - Canadian Defence Review pp7.pdf
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mixelflick

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Unread post12 Jul 2020, 16:47

Cliffs please...

Is there an end game in sight? You know, where Canada actually says "XYZ is the winner"! :)
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madrat

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Unread post12 Jul 2020, 19:31

They cannot afford boats and planes in the same budget cycles. Expect the planes to be put further and further off.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post14 Jul 2020, 02:46

madrat wrote:They cannot afford boats and planes in the same budget cycles. Expect the planes to be put further and further off.



Yes, This is what the original purchase plan was trying to avoid. now many things are due all at once.

So glad they played politics with this as the cost of F-35s dropped to levels even better than the Canadians estimated.
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magitsu

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Unread post31 Jul 2020, 20:30

Canada announces it got offers from all three eligible bidders: Boeing, LM and Saab.
https://twitter.com/securitysplat/statu ... 2237128704

Since you get prompted with an unsecure page warning (old SSL cert which Chrome doesn't like anymore) on the Canadian site, I'll paste the relevant part below:

Project at a glance

Acquiring advanced fighter aircraft to replace the Royal Canadian Air Force’s existing fleet of CF-18 fighters
Procuring 88 advanced fighter jets, associated equipment and weapons, set-up training, sustainment services
Contract value $15 to 19 billion

Next steps
Evaluate proposals and negotiate agreement from 2020 to 2022
Anticipate contract award in 2022
First replacement aircraft delivered as early as 2025


On July 31, 2020, the Government of Canada received bids from all three suppliers currently eligible to participate in the future fighter competitive procurement process:

Swedish Government—SAAB AB (publ)—Aeronautics with Diehl Defence GmbH & Co. KG, MBDA UK Ltd., and RAFAEL Advanced Defence Systems Ltd.
United States Government—Lockheed Martin Corporation (Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company) with Pratt and Whitney
United States Government—The Boeing Company with Peraton Canada Corp., CAE Inc., L3 Technologies MAS Inc., GE Canada and Raytheon Canada Limited Services and Support Division
An eligible supplier team may withdraw from the suppliers list at any time by notifying the Government of Canada in writing. The following teams have withdrawn from the competition and are therefore no longer eligible to participate in the process:

France-Dassault team—withdrew on November 8, 2018
United Kingdom and Northern Ireland team with Airbus Defence and Space GmbH—withdrew on August 30, 2019

https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/a ... 8-eng.html

In the tweet below there's a cheeky promo pic set from Boeing. 12 AMRAAM + 2 Sidewinders at once. Not usually operationally relevant, but it's certainly the most missile truck-like of them all.

"Along with submitting a bid today, Boeing has released two new images of the F/A-18E/F Block III in Canadian colors and configured with 10 AMRAAMs, 2 Sidewinders, an IRST pod and conformal fuel tanks."
https://twitter.com/TheDEWLine/status/1 ... 5869930497
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spazsinbad

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Unread post01 Aug 2020, 22:40

FEE - FI - FO - FUM - I smell a winner.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fee-fi-fo-fum
Sealed & Delivered: Canada RFP Response Submitted
31 Jul 2020 LM PR

"On July 31, the United States Government submitted its request for proposal response to the Canadian government for the Future Fighter Capability Project. In 2018, Canada officially began their competitive process to replace the Royal Canadian Air Force fleet of CF-18 aircraft. The Canadian government plans to procure 88 jets to replace its CF-18 fleet. We anticipate the Canadian government will make their fighter selection in this competitive process in early 2021.

Canada has been a partner since the inception of the Joint Strike Fighter competition in 1997. In 2006, Canada joined, the United States, United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Denmark, Australia, Turkey, Italy and Norway in a memorandum of understanding for the “Production, Sustainment and Follow-On Development” of the F-35.

The strength of the F-35 Program stems from our partners. More than 100 Canadian companies have supported the development and production of the F-35, which has helped nearly 10,000 Canadian jobs. If selected, the F-35 Program will support approximately 150,000 jobs through the life of the program...."

Source: https://www.f35.com/news/detail/sealed- ... -submitted
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luke_sandoz

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Unread post02 Aug 2020, 02:40

Looks like Boeing is going for the missile porn pitch.
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magitsu

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Unread post02 Aug 2020, 09:18

I guess it's simple enough approach to get coverage.
It also highlights how transition from CF-18 would be an improvement (of 2 missiles) in this regard, while the other choices could perhaps carry less than their current one. Whether that is operationally relevant at all is another thing.

It's rather interesting that Finnish competition includes Growlers, while the Canadian and Swiss one doesn't. Since the Canadian acquisition is larger, it could've been possible to try to achieve theoretical capability this way (and better compete against F-35's overall tech supremacy). Instead it's maxing frames.
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loke

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Unread post02 Aug 2020, 11:39

Saab's notice on this:

https://saabgroup.com/media/news-press/ ... to-canada/

I am somewhat surprised that they didn't just pull out like Eurofighter and Dassault did.

OTOH when people like Trumpf and Trodeou can become president&PM respectively, I guess anything can potentially happen in this strange new world.
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magitsu

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Unread post02 Aug 2020, 16:28

loke wrote:I am somewhat surprised that they didn't just pull out like Eurofighter and Dassault did.

Yeah, it's still very suspect how they would actually achieve Norad compatibility. Or do they expect not to win, or at least expect to get the rug pulled from under them (by the US) and not having to deliver what they promise?
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XanderCrews

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Unread post02 Aug 2020, 17:59

I am somewhat surprised that they didn't just pull out like Eurofighter and Dassault did.


I think theyre maybe worried about Finland and looking bad. They were expected to drop out. they were seemingly hanging on to see what was included in 2 eyes. industrial look-e-loo.



OTOH when people like Trumpf and Trodeou can become president&PM respectively, I guess anything can potentially happen in this strange new world.


Trump isn't a surprise if one looks at some factors in the US, and indeed all over the world. "populism" is the short hand for it.

Having said that, and since we are already involved in politics the only way Gripen wins in Canada is via politics. Canada has to actively shoot itself in the foot because a fair and even contest will find it firmly in 3rd place.

Is Trudeau Crazy enough to do such a thing? it may well be possible. Thats the only thing that worries me about this contest. If its fair, its a no brainer. in sane circumstances this is an easy one. But this is not a sane competition.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post02 Aug 2020, 18:28

magitsu wrote:
loke wrote:I am somewhat surprised that they didn't just pull out like Eurofighter and Dassault did.

Yeah, it's still very suspect how they would actually achieve Norad compatibility. Or do they expect not to win, or at least expect to get the rug pulled from under them (by the US) and not having to deliver what they promise?



good questions all around. They need to be careful here though. if the Canadians publish the results it exposes them. thats one of the reasons Saab dropped out last time in Canada. the odds of winning were near zero, but the odds of their airplane being competitively evaluated and shown to the world were very high. So they left.

They really can't achieve NORAD compatibility, especially as its moved to 5th generation. You can upgrade a Cessna 172 all you want, buy you can't upgrade it to a Cessna Caravan. There are simply limits. Gripen E would be out of sorts almost immediately.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post02 Aug 2020, 19:35

luke_sandoz wrote:Looks like Boeing is going for the missile porn pitch.

I wonder if they mentioned that the Super Hornet is subsonic in that configuration...
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XanderCrews

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Unread post03 Aug 2020, 00:16

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
luke_sandoz wrote:Looks like Boeing is going for the missile porn pitch.

I wonder if they mentioned that the Super Hornet is subsonic in that configuration...


Sure they did! Just like when they said the SH cost $65 million each for years and then suddenly in 2017 at showtime it was actually about 6 times that.

It's those little details...
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Unread post03 Aug 2020, 02:27

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
luke_sandoz wrote:Looks like Boeing is going for the missile porn pitch.

I wonder if they mentioned that the Super Hornet is subsonic in that configuration...


Not only subsonic, but I probably couldn't get to my neighborhood 7-11 a block away in that configuration.
I wonder if Lockheed will sue if Boeing gets the contract.
The best fighter for Canada people are argueing that Canada has not signed anything yet, so there is no cancellation fee.
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