“F-35 Improvement...”

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2020, 17:59
by quicksilver

Re: “F-35 Improvement...”

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2020, 19:07
by steve2267
Grudgingly...

Re: “F-35 Improvement...”

Unread postPosted: 07 Jan 2020, 21:30
by spazsinbad
My favourite sentence - the last one: "...Pentagon approval for full-rate production, delayed from last month, looms [why loom?] for sometime later this year after the testing is complete. :doh: ['slow tony' - for whom the bell tolls?] :devil:

"to loom is to appear or stand over someone in a threatening way. Don't loom over the person you're teaching to weave!" [funni] https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/loom

Re: “F-35 Improvement...”

Unread postPosted: 18 Jan 2020, 14:51
by mixelflick
Heard many of the same criticisms of the F-15, F-16 etc.. Apparently, most people are under the impression testing new aircraft should be trouble free. Factory fresh with no bugs, nothing to improve etc... I'm not sure how you turn this around, or how the F-35 made so many enemies. As far as I can see, it was/is "cool" to dump on the F-35.

That's changing though, as this and other reports show. It'll likely take successful, high profile raids and/or air to air shootdowns of enemy fighters to truly cement the fact the F-35's a world beater. Sad to say, but I don't see it happening any other way.

Alternatively, it may garner a good reputation the way the F-22 has: Once it shows up in your neighborhood, it's so dominant bad actors (i.e. Iran) get in line like, right quick.

Re: “F-35 Improvement...”

Unread postPosted: 18 Jan 2020, 17:24
by quicksilver
“I'm not sure how you turn this around”

Apart from pop-up sensationalist reporting every now and then, it’s already about as turned around as it ever will be in the age of click bait and re-reporting.

“Alternatively, it may garner a good reputation the way the F-22 has: Once it shows up in your neighborhood, it's so dominant bad actors (i.e. Iran) get in line like, right quick.“

Really? Cite an example for us.

Re: “F-35 Improvement...”

Unread postPosted: 26 Jan 2020, 15:51
by mixelflick
quicksilver wrote:“I'm not sure how you turn this around”

Apart from pop-up sensationalist reporting every now and then, it’s already about as turned around as it ever will be in the age of click bait and re-reporting.

“Alternatively, it may garner a good reputation the way the F-22 has: Once it shows up in your neighborhood, it's so dominant bad actors (i.e. Iran) get in line like, right quick.“

Really? Cite an example for us.


Sure...

Like the time an F-22 snuck up on an Iranian F-4, then appeared unannounced on its wingtip. It was told to go home, and promptly did so (likely because that F-4 pilot nearly crapped his pants).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L20qkP_q1iI

So put yourself in that Iranian's pilot's shoes... you're going to tell me that doesn't put the fear of God in you? Of course it will, and that extends to any Iranian pilot flying any of their fighters. The next time they suit up or scramble for an intercept, that's going to profoundly affect their physche. This Iranian pilot got in line like, right quick because he knew he was profoundly over-matched.

I'd call that a real good example..

Re: “F-35 Improvement...”

Unread postPosted: 26 Jan 2020, 16:44
by quicksilver
Let’s think a little bigger picture mix. Whether or not the F-22 story is apocryphal, the presence of F-22s did not alter Iran’s (the nation) strategic behavior one iota. One might better argue the case on the basis of drone presence.

Re: “F-35 Improvement...”

Unread postPosted: 27 Jan 2020, 07:33
by hythelday
quicksilver wrote:Let’s think a little bigger picture mix. Whether or not the F-22 story is apocryphal, the presence of F-22s did not alter Iran’s (the nation) strategic behavior one iota. One might better argue the case on the basis of drone presence.


Exactly.

Remember when Saddam's military got completely overmatched in 1991 in the most one-sided conflict since Anglo-Zanzibar War? Do you think Saddam went "oh shoot, I better behave myself now!". Not in the slightest. There were Tomahawk strikes in 1993, 1996, fear of new Kuwait invasion in 1994 that triggered operation Vigilant Warrior, operation Desert Fox in 1998, not to mention that Republican Guard got to business of putting down Kurdish revolts as the Desert Storm ceasefire negotiations were still ongoing in Safwan airbase. Did I mention that also NFZ (operation Southern/Northern Watch) had to be established as well as "boots on the ground" present in Iraqi Kurdistan as part of operations Provide Comfort I/II in order to stop slaughter of Kurds?

One is free to believe that a single F-22 can strike fear in every Iranian military man. One can also open the news and read that US embassy in Baghdad was struck by rocket artillery yesterday, and I don't think I need to tell you who was behind that.

Re: “F-35 Improvement...”

Unread postPosted: 27 Jan 2020, 11:51
by mixelflick
quicksilver wrote:Let’s think a little bigger picture mix. Whether or not the F-22 story is apocryphal, the presence of F-22s did not alter Iran’s (the nation) strategic behavior one iota. One might better argue the case on the basis of drone presence.


You are playing games with words/moving goal posts. I said the F-22's presence made bad actors get in line, and fast. And when you demanded an example, I gave you one. Perfect example of how when the F-22 is around, their fighters go from harassing our drones to.... going home WHEN THEY'RE TOLD TO.

That is an excellent example of just what I was talking about. Without firing a shot, Iranian fighters got in line fast with what WE wanted them to do. No F-15 did that, nor any super hornet. There's only one plane in the world that was capable of pulling that off (sneaking up unannounced, suddently appearing off the F-4's wingtip) - the F-22.

Re: “F-35 Improvement...”

Unread postPosted: 27 Jan 2020, 14:10
by quicksilver
Your words (which I was responding to), and I quote —

“Once it shows up in your neighborhood, it's so dominant bad actors (i.e. Iran) get in line like, right quick.“

Re: “F-35 Improvement...”

Unread postPosted: 27 Jan 2020, 17:33
by kimjongnumbaun
Psychology, it played a huge role. First, Iran de-escalated the situation from an all out conflict. Two, they were so paranoid about stealth aircraft that they shot down an airliner as soon as it appeared on their radar scope.

Re: “F-35 Improvement...”

Unread postPosted: 27 Jan 2020, 18:02
by quicksilver
Psychology? Always. For example, Serbian air defense was largely self-deterring on that count.

Lotsa stuff going on in ME airspace besides F-22 presence. The totality of that activity (and it’s greater potential) alters behavior, often asymmetrically.

Re: “F-35 Improvement...”

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2020, 18:18
by mixelflick
kimjongnumbaun wrote:Psychology, it played a huge role. First, Iran de-escalated the situation from an all out conflict. Two, they were so paranoid about stealth aircraft that they shot down an airliner as soon as it appeared on their radar scope.


Thank you.

From where I sit, the F-22 has done exactly as I described, and then some. As you correctly note, they were absolutely paranoid about stealth aircraft, chasing ghosts and got so unnerved they shot down an airliner. This, after one of their F-4's did exactly as told (by an F-22 pilot). This, after it magically appeared unannounced, mere feet from his wingtip.

No Super Hornet, F-15, 16, Typhoon or Rafale did that - the F-22 did. I would go so far as to say no other aircraft CAN do that, save the F-35/B-2. Put yourself in the Iranians shoes... Super-cruising stealth F-22's show up on your doorstep. You are powerless to stop them, but those were the orders you were given. Every blip on the scope becomes an F-22, and in the back of your mind you know it can reach out and hurt you with JDAM's.

You're going to tell me your behavior won't change a little? C'mon... This is real life. This is the effect the Raptor has on our enemies. And it's a good, no... great thing. No enemy anywhere has the weapons to counter it. They're all at risk, and they know it. The F-22 is a fundamental game changer - no matter how you look at it.

Re: “F-35 Improvement...”

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2020, 21:19
by quicksilver
Major player in IRG leadership gets popped by a drone and they all of a sudden get paranoid about Raptors — that had already been there for some time. Never mind all the other stuff in theater, including F-35s with blue stars on the side.

Got it.

Re: “F-35 Improvement...”

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2020, 22:09
by sprstdlyscottsmn
quicksilver wrote: Never mind all the ... F-35s with blue stars on the side.


You mean the thing they fired their Air Defense General over?

"Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force (IRIAF) commander Brigadier General Farzad Ismaili, who had been in office since 2010, has been fired by Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei after he kept secret that Israeli Air Force (IAF) F-35 stealth fighters had violated Iran’s airspace, the Kuwaiti daily Al Jarida reported on Saturday."

Re: “F-35 Improvement...”

Unread postPosted: 30 Jan 2020, 22:52
by quicksilver
Uhh, yep. :wink:

Re: “F-35 Improvement...”

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2020, 14:23
by mixelflick
Wow. So the Iranians got so bent by a stealth aircraft they fired one of their highest ranking, long tenured military commander? And all because he tried to cover up the fact a stealth bird was overflying their territory with impunity? Why, that's almost as bad as F-22's telling your fighters to go home, then your pilots following the enemy's orders.

That just can't be.

Lots of drones/4th gens in theater and have been for years, so they must be the reason..

Re: “F-35 Improvement...”

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2020, 19:15
by quicksilver
You’re missing the forest for the trees, mix. The F-22/F-4 incident occurred 7ish years ago.

Think about it; a SAM firing battery commander engages a 250-300 knot target flying around at relatively low altitude because he’s paranoid about Raptors. Is that what you think?

Re: “F-35 Improvement...”

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2020, 20:51
by quicksilver
“Lots of drones/4th gens in theater and have been for years, so they must be the reason...”

Paranoia amongst the air defenders is usually proportional to the perceived probability of getting whacked, whether it be from an ARM or other PGM coming thru the overhead, or getting stood up against a wall someplace for ‘failure to defend.’

Given the recent demonstration of US willingness to use a drone for lethal ends against an IRGC leader, you can bet some people were on edge.

If one is an air defender, there is plenty of stuff arrayed in the ME to be paranoid about. The list is long and distinguished.