Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2018, 08:08
by fang
The IAF chief Major-General Amikam Norkin said “We are flying the F-35 all of the Middle East and have already attacked twice on two different fronts"
https://www.reuters.com/article/lockhee ... SJ7N1PG02E

One more article
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/ ... spx/418833

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2018, 08:55
by Dragon029
If anyone finds that photo that's being referenced (of an F-35 flying over Beirut) be sure to post it here.

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2018, 09:21
by hythelday
Now watch people claim those 100s of SAMs were fired at F-35, because vintage Fan Song radar can track "quasi-stealth" Adir! :D

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2018, 13:56
by luke_sandoz

Confirmed: Israel uses the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2018, 14:28
by mixelflick
Not a lot of detail, but they've done it..

https://theaviationist.com/2018/05/22/e ... -aircraft/

Sounds like it was Syria. If so, this has to be a major blow to S-400 fans as it supposedly can see anything in Israel as soon as it's taking off...

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2018, 14:54
by spazsinbad

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2018, 15:02
by XanderCrews
But muh "knot reddy 4 pryme tyme"

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2018, 15:30
by mk82
Boom!!!!!! Rock and roll!!!! Steel on target!

Re: Confirmed: Israel uses the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2018, 15:33
by mk82
mixelflick wrote:Not a lot of detail, but they've done it..

https://theaviationist.com/2018/05/22/e ... -aircraft/

Sounds like it was Syria. If so, this has to be a major blow to S-400 fans as it supposedly can see anything in Israel as soon as it's taking off...


The S400 probably won’t see that F35I delivered SPICE PGM heading it’s way either lol!

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2018, 16:10
by steve2267
More telling, IMO, than the Israelis having already "struck twice" with the F-35 operationally, is the general's comments that Israel is flying the F-35 "all over the Middle East." I don't think they are on a public air show tour. They are probably mapping every target, every emitter, every communications or network node.

Too bad there isn't really anyone left in the ME for Israel to shoot down their Migs or Sukhois. I would think the Israelis and Russians do everything they can to avoid an armed confrontation.

Here's an interesting thought... how have the Israeli F-35's inferfaced with American F-22's over Syria? Avoided entirely? Not detected?

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2018, 17:12
by citanon
More details in a report from JPost, including some gloating by LM execs. :mrgreen:

https://m.jpost.com/Israel-News/IAF-com ... bat-558030

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2018, 18:24
by fang
Maj.Gen Norkin announcement about the first ever wet F-35
https://www.facebook.com/idfonline/vide ... cation=ufi

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2018, 20:26
by charlielima223
steve2267 wrote:
Here's an interesting thought... how have the Israeli F-35's inferfaced with American F-22's over Syria? Avoided entirely? Not detected?


I would think the F-22 after 3 years flying in, near, and around Russian platforms and soaked up plenty of electronic, radio, and radar signals greatly improving and updating threat libraries. This in turn would (IMO) prompt Israel to request a portion of those threat libraries and used it on their F-35s.

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2018, 21:56
by lamashtu
The announcement seems to put the Russians in a bind. Either say that the F-35s avoided detection so that they were unable to warn the Iranians and that the vaunted SA-21 and A-50U aren't quite the silver bullets that they claim they are, or basically acknowledge something that has gone unspoken thus far, that in spite of their more aggressive posture in the Middle East they will not lift a finger to defend the Iranians if it means jeopardising cordial relations with Israel.

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2018, 22:01
by spazsinbad

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2018, 22:11
by blindpilot
Of particular note.

Whether a US Marine pilot at Red Flag, or a Brit in SC, or an Israeli general ...

You don't hear a lot of "What a fantastic job it did. It worked so good ... it was amazing ... "

Of course it did, and it was ... BUT !!!

What you hear is this ...

"We are just beginning to realize the huge potential of the F-35."

That's more of a "Holy Sh**!!! do you realize that means we can .... " followed by "Not only that but we could even ... "

Double the staff working on the CONOPS ASAP! Sounds like what Berke was trying to tell us years ago ...

FWIW,
BP

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2018, 22:22
by quicksilver
hythelday wrote:Now watch people claim those 100s of SAMs were fired at F-35, because vintage Fan Song radar can track "quasi-stealth" Adir! :D


When they can’t see F-35, everything they CAN see becomes F-35...and they shoot at ‘it.’

Re: Confirmed: Israel uses the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 22 May 2018, 23:21
by zenith
We are flying the F-35 all over the Middle East. It has become part of our operational capabilities.

maybe they did fly to Iran.

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 00:56
by nutshell
Jeez guys, this was a GLOURIUS days.

I didn't even had to argue much, just quote the 100missiles from Norkin to unleash a river of salt in some italian blogs full of ignorant haters.

Ahhh...yeah. Love you Israeli's Air Force.

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 01:33
by sunstersun
Man Italy is easily the least talked about partner even though they are #2 lol.

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 01:47
by steve2267
To what Blind was saying...

Go back thirty years... and some Air Force general was dreaming... "If only I could take an F-117, only stealthier, give it performance better than an F-16... give it air-to-air capabilities better than anybody except this new F-22... and, oh yeah, make it cheap enough that I could get a couple thousand -- replace all my F-16's -- ooh... ooh... what we could do then."

And that only scratches the surface.

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 03:26
by blindpilot
quicksilver wrote:
hythelday wrote:Now watch people claim those 100s of SAMs were fired at F-35, because vintage Fan Song radar can track "quasi-stealth" Adir! :D


When they can’t see F-35, everything they CAN see becomes F-35...and they shoot at ‘it.’


Or you can just fly air cap from the O-Club bar ... just saying... Ever wonder how many times the F-22 guys have done that? The range of CONOPS is mind boggling ... make that triple the staff!

BP

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 09:33
by zero-one
When the S-400, Su-35 and Su-57 were deployed in Syria, everyones all "US wouldn't dare deploy the F-35 now cause its dead meat out there" or "If the F-35 is so good then why don't they use it in Syria", "Stealth is a scam" blah blah blah....

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 10:56
by marsavian
I suspect the F-35 is acting as a forward ISR/ESM/EW aircraft for the F-15/F-16s and their missiles. The Russians are only detecting the F-15s but I suspect the F-35s are ahead of them finding, tracking and blinding the targets for them. The purported accuracy and devastation on recent targets seemed too great to be attributable to just 4th gen aircraft firing from stand off ranges in Lebanon. The F-35 is a serious force multiplier, perhaps Sprey and his dumb followers should have been focusing on that rather than alleged poor pure dogfight characteristics.

Notice how RT/Sputnik have been giving full reign to the F-35 FUD crew like Sprey for years now because unlike those idiots they know how deadly it truly is and the less that face them the better. Sure their latest fighters can dance and pirouette in the skies like lithe ballerinas unfortunately these ballerinas are wearing blindfolds against the F-35 Lightning Adir !

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 13:22
by zero-one
marsavian wrote:perhaps Sprey and his dumb followers should have been focusing on that rather than alleged poor pure dogfight characteristics.


Few theories why they did this

1. Nostalgia: Ow here we go, its Vietnam all over again, another fat, heavy and sluggish fighter with wiz bang technology that will allegedly make dogfights obsolete.....again...these guys never learn.

2. It's sexy: Lets face it, no one, looks at a plane doing a fly-by and says, "Oh man did you see how much data he transferred on that last pass" If a fighter can't turn and burn, its automatically the fat nerd in school, it gets picked on. the fat kid can hide,throw rocks at bullies before running home for dear life all he wants, but he will always be the looser.

3. less bang for the buck: when his car is more expensive than your car, you expect to everything yours can, just better. Because if you find that small niche that yours does which his can't, you can always use that against him.

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 13:48
by nutshell
sunstersun wrote:Man Italy is easily the least talked about partner even though they are #2 lol.


Hate and ignorance know no boundries!

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 13:54
by mk82
nutshell wrote:
sunstersun wrote:Man Italy is easily the least talked about partner even though they are #2 lol.


Hate and ignorance know no boundries!


Loving how the F35 haterz are losing their minds now that their world has imploded LOL! So sad but so entertaining :mrgreen:

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 13:59
by steve2267
Except... the F-35 can turn and burn.

Yes, it has been expensive. (When has bleeding edge, NOT been expensive?) But that is mostly by design, if un-intended, because of the spiral / continuous development strategy the DOD / JPO chose.

The whole F-35 loses to a F-16D with two bags meme did so much damage to the F-35 reputation, I shake my head at WHO in the F-35 program would leak something like that? Why? What was the purpose? A former Boing employee full of spite? A spy? A "defense establishment" employee who personally hated the F-35 program for some reason yet it signed his/her paycheck?

My point being the F-35 was designed to be as maneuverable as the F-16 and F/A-18. By all accounts at this point, the jet is meeting those maneuverability KPPs and the pilots say the F-35 (regularly) waxes the Viper and the Hornet. (Perhaps a little bit of inference on my part with that last bit.)

Clearly Sprey knows little, if anything, about aircraft design. Yeah, maybe he had a little to do with some aircraft performance metrics in the distant past, but actual design of aircraft? I don't see it, and I haven't read anywhere about him actually designing a flying object.

Take an F-16. If you stuff enough gas in it so it doesn't need EFTs, shape its OML for stealth, tuck the weapons inside (for stealth), and go to a canted twin tail (for stealth, and not unlike that one F-16 design consideration John Will mentioned once), and a BIG honking motor to push it all... what do you end up with? An F-35.

Didn't Sprey chew on the F-16 a ways back -- too complicated... don't need the radar, just a radar ranging gunsight. I'm guessing Sprey was a fan of the F-20 Tigershark. Not enough gas, though. (Let alone not stealthy.) And he couldn't claim any "designership" of the F-20. :doh:

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 14:16
by ricnunes
steve2267 wrote:Didn't Sprey chew on the F-16 a ways back -- too complicated... don't need the radar, just a radar ranging gunsight. I'm guessing Sprey was a fan of the F-20 Tigershark. Not enough gas, though. (Let alone not stealthy.) And he couldn't claim any "designership" of the F-20. :doh:


The funny thing of what you mentioned above is that the F-20 Tigershark was designed to have radar and BVR air-to-air capability from the start and thus was also conceived to carry the AIM-7 Sparrow Missile from the start - something which the F-16A didn't (from the start).

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 14:32
by mk82
Steve2267: “ My point being the F-35 was designed to be as maneuverable as the F-16 and F/A-18. By all accounts at this point, the jet is meeting those maneuverability KPPs and the pilots say the F-35 (regularly) waxes the Viper and the Hornet. (Perhaps a little bit of inference on my part with that last bit.)“

I would say that the F-35 actually exceeded its maneuverability KPPs in many respects, especially in the high AOA regime. Dutch F35A Pilots have stated (in black and white) that they regularly gain an advantage on Vipers (with real world/operational load outs) in BFM/ACM and that the F35 could still perform competitive BFM/ACM whilst carrying bombs in the internal weapons bay!

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 15:52
by SpudmanWP
steve2267 wrote:because of the spiral / continuous development strategy the DOD / JPO chose

If you are talking about "concurrency, that was mandated by Congress.

WHO in the F-35 program would leak something like that?

Congressional aide from St. Louis?

I haven't read anywhere about him actually designing a flying object.

He was a paper-pushing "analyst".

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 15:55
by ricnunes
mk82 wrote:Steve2267: “ My point being the F-35 was designed to be as maneuverable as the F-16 and F/A-18. By all accounts at this point, the jet is meeting those maneuverability KPPs and the pilots say the F-35 (regularly) waxes the Viper and the Hornet. (Perhaps a little bit of inference on my part with that last bit.)“

I would say that the F-35 actually exceeded its maneuverability KPPs in many respects, especially in the high AOA regime. Dutch F35A Pilots have stated (in black and white) that they regularly gain an advantage on Vipers (with real world/operational load outs) in BFM/ACM and that the F35 could still perform competitive BFM/ACM whilst carrying bombs in the internal weapons bay!


Yes indeed.
And I would even add that even if the aircraft (F-35) "only" had and maneuverability of the F-16 and the maneuverability of the F/A-18 this by itself and alone clearly means that the aircraft (F-35) is already more maneuverable than the F-16 and more maneuverable than the F/A-18 :wink:

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 18:03
by basher54321
steve2267 wrote:Didn't Sprey chew on the F-16 a ways back -- too complicated... don't need the radar, just a radar ranging gunsight. I'm guessing Sprey was a fan of the F-20 Tigershark. Not enough gas, though. (Let alone not stealthy.) And he couldn't claim any "designership" of the F-20.



Sprey was hired by Northrop as a consultant on the program at one point according to the USAF and the reformers were pushing it (F-20) against the F-15 IIRC.

AFAIK the reason why the F-16A didn't have Sparrow from the start was purely down to USAF requirements nothing to do with Sprey even though he has made a lot of comments like that, whereas customers like Taiwan wanted a Sparrow firing F-5G.

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 18:55
by fang
Dragon029 wrote:If anyone finds that photo that's being referenced (of an F-35 flying over Beirut) be sure to post it here.

Here it is (not the best quality)...

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 19:33
by ricnunes
Thanks fang :thumb:

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 19:36
by SpudmanWP
That's not really "over" Beirut as it's a couple of miles off the coast.

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 19:48
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Also has looney lenses on top

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 20:03
by SpudmanWP
That's an interesting option to have outside of Israel....

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 23 May 2018, 22:33
by zerion

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 24 May 2018, 00:16
by fang
ricnunes wrote:Thanks fang :thumb:

You most welcome!
Note probably the most important thing about this image, it been taken by another Adir pilot (with his cell phone?)
The two F-35 were flying in non-stealth mode, high altitude in a bright day light near the Russian S-400 and Syrian SA-5, SA-17, SA-22 etc. batteries.
PR not only to the IAF but also to US/LM..

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 24 May 2018, 01:48
by discofishing
fang wrote:
ricnunes wrote:Thanks fang :thumb:

You most welcome!
Note probably the most important thing about this image, it been taken by another Adir pilot (with his cell phone?)
The two F-35 were flying stealth mode, high altitude in a bright day light totally undetected by the nearest Russian S-400 and Syrian SA-5, SA-17, SA-22 etc. batteries.
PR not only to the IAF but also to US/LM..


I don't know if I believe this picture. You mention stealth mode. According this article, those bumps on the top of the plane would indicate it WAS NOT in stealth mode at all.

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-lun ... nia-2017-5

Edit: I guess those humps are Luneberg RADAR Reflectors

http://www.radar-reflector.com/products ... -reflector

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 24 May 2018, 01:56
by Dragon029
I would speculate the photo was taken from an F-16 or F-15; it's not like Lebanon puts up any physical resistance to Israeli fighters flying through their airspace enroute to Syria.

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 24 May 2018, 07:20
by fang
discofishing wrote:I don't know if I believe this picture. You mention stealth mode. According this article, those bumps on the top of the plane would indicate it WAS NOT in stealth mode at all.
I guess those humps are Luneberg RADAR Reflectors

OK TNX
That's weird, wonder if it was coordinated with the Russians..

BTW, can the F-35 jettison the Looney humps in the air? go from non-stealth to stealth

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 26 May 2018, 07:31
by mk82
Actually it makes sense for the F35I flying near Beirut to utilize Looney lenses.The Looney lenses will mask/hide the F35’s true RCS (which is very important for Israel as there are many adversarial radar systems in relatively close proximity that could be used to determine the F35’s true RCS). In addition (a poster on this thread has already mentioned this), the F35Is were not physically threatened by the Lebanese arm forces. An F35I flying with Looney lenses will just look like any other radar blip in the Middle East (F15?/F16? etc).

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2018, 01:39
by spazsinbad
How 'bout Russia claiming NOT to use equipment to target Israeli Aircraft targeting Iranian assets in Syria - way to go huh.
Israel Flies First F-35 Combat Missions
30 May 2018 Chris Pocock

"Last week’s news that Israel has flown operational missions with its F-35A "Adir" stealth fighters over Syria and Lebanon has been followed by media reports that Russia has agreed not to use its Syria-based air defense systems to engage Israeli warplanes that attack Iranian targets in Syria. [so that is why these assets could not detect F-35s <sigh>] In recent weeks, the Israeli Air Force (IAF) has attacked long-range missiles and rockets that Iran has placed in Syria to fire on Israeli territory. Two of these missions were flown by F-35s, according to IAF commander Maj Gen Amikam Norkin….

...According to Norkin, Syria has fired more than 100 Russian-supplied SA-5, SA-17, and SA-22 SAMs at IAF aircraft. “In response, we destroyed their SAM batteries,” he added. But the F-35s, and other Israeli combat jets, have apparently not been threatened by the S-300/350/400 SAM systems that Russian has deployed to Syria. Russian president Vladimir Putin is believed to have promised non-intervention during talks in Moscow with Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu earlier this month....

...“With C4I technology integrated into the Adir, the F-35 is particularly critical to countering Hezbollah’s vast rocket threat through rapid identification and prioritization of targets for the IAF,” she said, adding that the jets “can fly in what we call ‘beast mode,’ carrying up to 18,000 pounds of internal and external ordnance, in a mix that can include 5,000-pound-class weapons.”

Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... t-missions

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2018, 01:42
by weasel1962
May be partly true. The Israelis are flying F-16s and F-15s in combat missions. Not exactly stealthy to existing radars and clearly targets if the Russians are seriously intent on targeting the Israelis.

The counter would of course if the targets detect a lock, one can be sure an ARM follows.

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2018, 03:18
by spazsinbad
Clearly this sub-forum and this thread are about the F-35. The title of the cited article on previous page says "F-35". I personally don't give a stuff about all the TANKS, and OTHER AIRCRAFT that keep popping up on these threads. Primarily the sub-forum is about the F-35 and that was the intent of my comment. AS IF we don't all know about NON-STEALTH!

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2018, 03:21
by weasel1962
spazsinbad wrote:Clearly this sub-forum and this thread are about the F-35. The title of the cited article on previous page says "F-35". I personally don't give a stuff about all the TANKS, and OTHER AIRCRAFT that keep popping up on these threads. Primarily the sub-forum is about the F-35 and that was the intent of my comment. AS IF we don't all know about NON-STEALTH!


I hear you. Just stating that when the Russians were making that comment, they probably weren't just thinking of F-35s.

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2018, 04:48
by spazsinbad
OK - my contention (without knowing - just a guess) is that the statement is cover FOR NOT BEING ABLE TO DETECT F-35i.

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2018, 06:40
by weasel1962
spazsinbad wrote:OK - my contention (without knowing - just a guess) is that the statement is cover FOR NOT BEING ABLE TO DETECT F-35i.


Be nice. The Russian detected the F-35s thru binoculars when the F-35s were flying directly overhead and held back shooting their AK-47s which would brought the F-35 down with laughter.

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 00:02
by sunstersun

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 04:44
by steve2267
sunstersun wrote:http://www.jewishpress.com/news/middle-east/iran-news/khamenei-fires-air-force-chief-over-israeli-f-35-deep-penetration-of-irans-sky/2018/06/09/


Whether true, or not, it would seem the Israeli's have the Iranians chasing their own tail now. The Adir pilots are probably having a good ol' time back in the o'club bar.

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 10 Jun 2018, 22:50
by botsing
sunstersun wrote:http://www.jewishpress.com/news/middle-east/iran-news/khamenei-fires-air-force-chief-over-israeli-f-35-deep-penetration-of-irans-sky/2018/06/09/

Thank God those press idiots don't know about Luneburg lenses yet, making it easy to spot their fud.

And:
the Russians gave Israel the secret code of the Russian radar in Iran

LOL! Reminds me of Airwolf.

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2018, 19:46
by usnvo
steve2267 wrote:
sunstersun wrote:http://www.jewishpress.com/news/middle-east/iran-news/khamenei-fires-air-force-chief-over-israeli-f-35-deep-penetration-of-irans-sky/2018/06/09/


Whether true, or not, it would seem the Israeli's have the Iranians chasing their own tail now. The Adir pilots are probably having a good ol' time back in the o'club bar.


When I first read the article at the beginning of the thread, I immediately thought PSYOPS. Just looking at the number of supposed Iranian locations and how far apart they were, I had to chuckle. If they were actual missions, that is pretty impressive. Also, not really all that valuable. If it is PSYOPS, well if they go looking for something that isn't there, they won't find it BUTyou may learn a lot about how they plan on looking for it.

Re: Israel is the first to use the F-35 in combat

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2018, 15:22
by magitsu
lrrpf52 wrote:I'm looking for the thread about Israel penetrating Iranian airspace.

viewtopic.php?p=390812#p390812