F-35A to Red Flag

Thank you spaz, that was very interesting.

Some quick thoughts:

- Holy crap about the threat level at this point of development for F-35.

- F-35 did great and this exercise confirmed the capabilities are already awesome. Just wait until they get 3F..

- Further confirmation that F-35 is even stealthier than F-22

- 15:1 or better kill ratio when carrying only 2 AMRAAMs and 2 JDAMs is pretty damn impressive.

- RAF seems to be very interested in integrating with F-35 and very excited with the results.

Really good video by our very own dragon029, got me thinking, what will the basement dwellers think of next?
then it got to 3:11. All 7 kills to the F-35 were WVR. Do we have any more info about this before they turn it to a "The F-35 was beaten in WVR 7 times in a realistic exercise, if F-16s can do that imagine what Su-3X X can do" story line.

Yeah, no doubt the microscope will be on the 7 WVR kills. "The F-35 can't turn, climb, run etc.". They'll be ZERO attention paid to the 145 or so F-35 kills and how overwhelming that is.

Part of the problem with 5th gen stealth birds is this aura of invincibility. As in taking zero casualties. Someone in the Air Force/Marines etc. needs to manage expectations (stealth doesn't = invincible). It simply means it's a lot harder to target...

What would be especially interesting, is if we knew whether any of those 7 kills occurred prior to Red Air regenerating, or if they were all post regeneration.

No to mention:

1. Were any kills of the F-35 gun kills? Or were they all heat seekers? (Were any radar guided missiles? Doubtful, IMO, but if the red air was close enough after a regen, say...)
2. Did all 7 F-35 losses result in mutual kills? That is, both red air and F-35 saw each other, and both fired. Without the -9X at this time, the F-35 could be (probably would be?) at a great disadvantage WVR.
3. Did any red air manage to saddle up on a Lightning?

Yeah, no doubt the microscope will be on the 7 WVR kills. "The F-35 can't turn, climb, run etc.". They'll be ZERO attention paid to the 145 or so F-35 kills and how overwhelming that is.

Part of the problem with 5th gen stealth birds is this aura of invincibility. As in taking zero casualties. Someone in the Air Force/Marines etc. needs to manage expectations (stealth doesn't = invincible). It simply means it's a lot harder to target...

The obvious response to these idiots would be, "well 100% of all F-22 loses were WVR so it must be the world's worst dogfighter".

The obvious response to these idiots would be, "well 100% of all F-22 loses were WVR so it must be the world's worst dogfighter".

Nah, we can easily counter that with the fact that Typhoon, Flanker, Eagle and Viper pilots all acknowledge that the Raptor is beast in ACM. Its less invincible in that department but certainly not easy prey. By the way, was there never a BVR kill against a Raptor?

Cause 100% of F-117 kills (which has a total of 1) has been BVR, or at least without VID. So yeah stealth can be killed without visuals and with a radar guided missile no less. I just don't know if the Raptor has been killed this way as well.

Anyway, if more info comes in, I'm pretty sure the F-35s won some of the WVR engagements. Just need actual testimonies.

Anyway, if more info comes in, I'm pretty sure the F-35s won some of the WVR engagements. Just need actual testimonies.

And it would have had to have been a WVR AIM-120 kill -- not the easiest way to get a WVR kill.

Just when you thought it was safe to WAVE the (name your colour) FLAG along comes AIRHEADS with 'inside' guesswork....

Will this F-35 survive its enemy? We doubt it
11 Mar 2017 AIRheads/MB

"The survivability of the future main combat jet of the US armed forces and many of their allies is again in doubt. Despite praising Red Flag Exercise after-action reports on deployed US Air Force and US Marine Corps F-35s, Airheadsfly.com feels the effectiveness in tomorrow’s air war against – let’s say – Russian or even Swedish fighter jets is not as rosy as we are “made” to believe....

...how realistic the scenarios played at Red Flag are. We have no doubt they do mirror future war situations, but we do question if the more capable enemy aircraft are really put into play. ... But can it match the Russian Sukhoi Su-37s or Swedish SAAB JAS 39C/D Gripen MS20s? [buttgripping stuff indeed]

Adversaries
The “professional adversaries” (Aggressor aircraft) during the Red Flag 2016-3 were above all 1980/1990s-era F-16s of the US Air Force 64th Aggressor Squadron as well as 1960s-era McDonnell Douglas A-4 Skyhawks flown by the Draken International paramilitary organisation. Hardly comparable to the most modern aircraft of today.

When it comes to manoeuvrability and range the F-35 is by far outmatched by its modern Russian rivals, such as the Sukhoi Su-35BM/S equipped with trust-vectoring (movable) engines. The Lightning II flies only a two-thirds (1,200 mls / 2,200 km) of the distance the Su-35 (1,980 mls / 3,600 km), while having tankers in a bandit-rich environment is not considered a likely scenario.

JAS 39 Gripen MS20
True, the F-35 has the stealth advantage but according to sources within Swedish SAAB and the Swedish Air Force the newest MS20 software upgrade of the JAS 39 Gripen jet enables the aircraft’s radar and other systems to detect and counter these stealthy aircraft quite well. Although it is unlikely American jocks will fly against Vikings the new Meteor missile has given the JAS 39 Gripen – as well as the French Rafale – a lethal weapon against enemy aircraft over the 60 miles (100 km) range.

The Swedes have fielded the upgraded Gripen MS20 and Meteor mainly to cope with the Russian Sukhoi PAK A/T-50 stealthy air-supiority fighter and the non-stealthy Flankers of the 4+ generation. But the technology as such can – in the wrong hands – quite likely turn a F-35 into a smoking hole in the ground as well. [more clenching buts]

S-400...
...Moreover, Russia is traditionally keeping a better pace between aircraft and missile technology, while US puts more money into its aircraft technology and let its pilots often fly with somewhat antiquated anti-air weaponry and having its ground forces operating with less-good-than-what-the-Russians-have missile batteries. [???? more in the URL text]

Believe vs Make-believe
We do believe the F-35s state-of-the-art sensors give its users a great asset in any war scenario, but with still lacking basic things as stand-off weapons, the ability to bring just four air-to-air missiles to the air war in order to remain stealthy (all weapons internal) and with the newest electronic counter and detect developments made by other defence manufacturers worldwide the survivability as advertised by the Red Flag after-action reports may very well be nothing more than make-believe." [geebus that is sad indeed]

Source: http://airheadsfly.com/2017/03/11/will- ... -doubt-it/

LOL as if S-400, Su-35 and JAS Gripen C/D are some really special systems without similar or better systems in US service. That text is about as knowledgeable as me trying to compare brain surgery techniques...

Anyway, if more info comes in, I'm pretty sure the F-35s won some of the WVR engagements. Just need actual testimonies.

And it would have had to have been a WVR AIM-120 kill -- not the easiest way to get a WVR kill.

Why do you say that? AMRAAMS can engage targets as close as 2000m, without difficulty.

The obvious response to these idiots would be, "well 100% of all F-22 loses were WVR so it must be the world's worst dogfighter".

Nah, we can easily counter that with the fact that Typhoon, Flanker, Eagle and Viper pilots all acknowledge that the Raptor is beast in ACM. Its less invincible in that department but certainly not easy prey. By the way, was there never a BVR kill against a Raptor?

Cause 100% of F-117 kills (which has a total of 1) has been BVR, or at least without VID. So yeah stealth can be killed without visuals and with a radar guided missile no less. I just don't know if the Raptor has been killed this way as well.

Anyway, if more info comes in, I'm pretty sure the F-35s won some of the WVR engagements. Just need actual testimonies.

The F-117 was shot down less than 10km from the SAM site.

Just when you thought it was safe to WAVE the (name your colour) FLAG along comes AIRHEADS with 'inside' guesswork....

Will this F-35 survive its enemy? We doubt it
11 Mar 2017 AIRheads/MB

"The survivability of the future main combat jet of the US armed forces and many of their allies is again in doubt. Despite praising Red Flag Exercise after-action reports on deployed US Air Force and US Marine Corps F-35s, Airheadsfly.com feels the effectiveness in tomorrow’s air war against – let’s say – Russian or even Swedish fighter jets is not as rosy as we are “made” to believe....

...how realistic the scenarios played at Red Flag are. We have no doubt they do mirror future war situations, but we do question if the more capable enemy aircraft are really put into play. ... But can it match the Russian Sukhoi Su-37s or Swedish SAAB JAS 39C/D Gripen MS20s? [buttgripping stuff indeed]

Adversaries
The “professional adversaries” (Aggressor aircraft) during the Red Flag 2016-3 were above all 1980/1990s-era F-16s of the US Air Force 64th Aggressor Squadron as well as 1960s-era McDonnell Douglas A-4 Skyhawks flown by the Draken International paramilitary organisation. Hardly comparable to the most modern aircraft of today.

When it comes to manoeuvrability and range the F-35 is by far outmatched by its modern Russian rivals, such as the Sukhoi Su-35BM/S equipped with trust-vectoring (movable) engines. The Lightning II flies only a two-thirds (1,200 mls / 2,200 km) of the distance the Su-35 (1,980 mls / 3,600 km), while having tankers in a bandit-rich environment is not considered a likely scenario.

JAS 39 Gripen MS20
True, the F-35 has the stealth advantage but according to sources within Swedish SAAB and the Swedish Air Force the newest MS20 software upgrade of the JAS 39 Gripen jet enables the aircraft’s radar and other systems to detect and counter these stealthy aircraft quite well. Although it is unlikely American jocks will fly against Vikings the new Meteor missile has given the JAS 39 Gripen – as well as the French Rafale – a lethal weapon against enemy aircraft over the 60 miles (100 km) range.

The Swedes have fielded the upgraded Gripen MS20 and Meteor mainly to cope with the Russian Sukhoi PAK A/T-50 stealthy air-supiority fighter and the non-stealthy Flankers of the 4+ generation. But the technology as such can – in the wrong hands – quite likely turn a F-35 into a smoking hole in the ground as well. [more clenching buts]

S-400...
...Moreover, Russia is traditionally keeping a better pace between aircraft and missile technology, while US puts more money into its aircraft technology and let its pilots often fly with somewhat antiquated anti-air weaponry and having its ground forces operating with less-good-than-what-the-Russians-have missile batteries. [???? more in the URL text]

Believe vs Make-believe
We do believe the F-35s state-of-the-art sensors give its users a great asset in any war scenario, but with still lacking basic things as stand-off weapons, the ability to bring just four air-to-air missiles to the air war in order to remain stealthy (all weapons internal) and with the newest electronic counter and detect developments made by other defence manufacturers worldwide the survivability as advertised by the Red Flag after-action reports may very well be nothing more than make-believe." [geebus that is sad indeed]

Source: http://airheadsfly.com/2017/03/11/will- ... -doubt-it/

LOL. What poppy cock. Whines about the 80s era F-16 promotes gripens 80s era radar because it got an upgrade.

Follow your own rules douchebags. If you're concerned about age of weapon systems=effectiveness why is the gripen an indicator of something modern or new or effective? Gripen doesn't even have AESA which is what the Super gripen is bringing. Old gripen can't take AESA because it can't power it.

Stupidity masquerading as journalism

LOL. What poppy cock. Whines about the 80s era F-16 promotes gripens 80s era radar because it got an upgrade.

Follow your own rules douchebags. If you're concerned about age of weapon systems=effectiveness why is the gripen an indicator of something modern or new or effective? Gripen doesn't even have AESA which is what the Super gripen is bringing. Old gripen can't take AESA because it can't power it.

Stupidity masquerading as journalism

Aw, c'mon XC. You're being too hard on them. They said it, therefore it must be true!

[/sarc=off]

They're stuck in a 4th gen mindset -- maneuverability is key; stealth is a fantasy / does not work / is easily countered.

Anyway, if more info comes in, I'm pretty sure the F-35s won some of the WVR engagements. Just need actual testimonies.

And it would have had to have been a WVR AIM-120 kill -- not the easiest way to get a WVR kill.

Why do you say that? AMRAAMS can engage targets as close as 2000m, without difficulty.

I was not saying the AIM-120 is not capable WVR -- clearly it is. However, the AIM-9X would be the WVR weapon of choice, no? Therefore, if the F-35 was getting WVR kills with AIM-120s, how much more effective / deadly will it be WVR when 3F arrives and AIM-9X is an option, mission dependent?