F-35 Airshow Routine

Production milestones, roll-outs, test flights, service introduction and other milestones.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

quicksilver

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2620
  • Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 01:30
  • Warnings: 1

Unread post18 Apr 2014, 22:19

I guess I should have been more explicit about the speeds, time etc.

They are indicative of the fact that they weren't trying to impress anyone with anything they were doing conventionally -- no AB takeoff, no snappy roll or pitch rates, etc -- just vanilla stuff that the average junior Lieutenant could do. It will be largely the same in the UK this summer.

For the most part the demo pilot spends most of his attention making sure he doesn't exceed any of the limits specified in the current flight clearance, and given the amount of excess performance they have in hand (lots), that's no small task.
Offline
User avatar

sferrin

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5373
  • Joined: 22 Jul 2005, 03:23

Unread post19 Apr 2014, 00:02

quicksilver wrote:Yuma pilot said (to me) he was at ~280kts when he made the LH climbing turn at midfield (after a mil power t/o). He tapped the burner for 5 seconds and then went to idle and the jet still coasted to 390kts.

That's 0-280 in ~25 secs and roughly a half-mile light loaded in mil (rwy 3R at Yuma is an 8K' rwy).


This is still my favorite STO. At 4:00. Not too shabby for no AB, nozzle angled down, and a giant airbrake on the roof.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8hMqOqauz0
"There I was. . ."
Offline

zero-one

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2166
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post19 Apr 2014, 00:11

Well I sure hope the B model performs well in its RIAT debut, at least let it do some crisp tight turns.
Or else its gona be a hey day for the critics again.

i find it quite difficult to understand why the F-35 still has such limits in its flight envelope after almost a decade of development while the PAK-FA seems to have a wide flight envelope already so early in development stage.
Offline

quicksilver

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2620
  • Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 01:30
  • Warnings: 1

Unread post19 Apr 2014, 01:17

zero-one wrote:Well I sure hope the B model performs well in its RIAT debut, at least let it do some crisp tight turns.
Or else its gona be a hey day for the critics again.

i find it quite difficult to understand why the F-35 still has such limits in its flight envelope after almost a decade of development while the PAK-FA seems to have a wide flight envelope already so early in development stage.


Like it or not, the limits are the reality. The other reality is that the operators themselves impose setbacks from the limits set forth in the flight clearance to ensure the flight clearance limits are not exceeded. Thus, they fly in a very conservative box that has little to do with what the jet is actually capable of performing.

Deal with it...it ain't gonna change until Block 2B fleet release.
Offline

quicksilver

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2620
  • Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 01:30
  • Warnings: 1

Unread post19 Apr 2014, 01:37

sferrin wrote:
quicksilver wrote:Yuma pilot said (to me) he was at ~280kts when he made the LH climbing turn at midfield (after a mil power t/o). He tapped the burner for 5 seconds and then went to idle and the jet still coasted to 390kts.

That's 0-280 in ~25 secs and roughly a half-mile light loaded in mil (rwy 3R at Yuma is an 8K' rwy).


This is still my favorite STO. At 4:00. Not too shabby for no AB, nozzle angled down, and a giant airbrake on the roof.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8hMqOqauz0


The nozzle is angled down to ensure directional control (via NWS) is maintained during the takeoff roll until rotation. You should also note that the nozzle rotates upward momentarily at the point where the takeoff rotation occurs. Such movement instantaneously alters the vertical component of lift between the lift fan and the main engine exhaust thereby contributing to the pitch rotation.
Offline

zero-one

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2166
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post19 Apr 2014, 02:21

I know they dont have the full envelope yet, so maybe no fancy high AOA stuff just yet.

but atleast an F-16 like performance would sufice.

To sum it up, an F-16 demo is simply all about power and tight crisp turning.
I hope we're not sugesting that the F-35 is still not allowed to do that.

After years of saying that envelope expanssion is at full swing, the aircraft is exceeding expectations in all flight regeimes etc etc.
certainly I hope we can expect much more than simply take off, repostition, hover than land right. Or basically what they did in Yuma
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 23155
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post19 Apr 2014, 02:51

Seems to me that whatever happens at UK airshow will disappoint some. Perhaps searching the internet for comments about YUMA may predict something. I have not done that. As you know I will be impressed by whatever STOVL is demonstrated. I'm easily pleased. :devil: :doh: Meanwhile a decade ago some predictions were made about X-35B STOVL Performance in the PDF cited and here is some idea of what is achieved perhaps these days - with an F-35B etc.....

And then the VIDEO!

THE JSF STOVL PERFORMANCE PROCESS FROM SMALL-SCALE DATABASE TO FLIGHT TEST DEMONSTRATION Nov 2002

"Abstract
This paper discusses the STOVL performance calculation process that was executed during the Joint Strike Fighter Concept Demonstration Phase. It includes a discussion of the performance methods themselves and the inputs required to run them. The X-32B and X-35B STOVL Concept Demonstrator Aircraft are used as case studies. Lessons learned from the development of their STOVL performance related databases are discussed. The pre-flight test STOVL performance calculations are compared with the flight test demonstrated performance. To the extent possible, the paper provides a comparison between the small-scale and full-scale STOVL database elements, such as hot gas ingestion and propulsion induced aerodynamics. This background, along with the experiences of other predecessor programs, will provide the point-of-departure for STOVL performance estimates during the JSF System Development and Demonstration (SDD) Phase, as well as performance estimates for any future STOVL aircraft development programs."

SOURCE: http://pdf.aiaa.org/downloads/2002/CDRe ... 274d1857TR (PDF 1.8Mb)


Attachments
X-35BautoSTOperfGraph.gif
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline

quicksilver

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2620
  • Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 01:30
  • Warnings: 1

Unread post19 Apr 2014, 13:40

zero-one wrote:I know they dont have the full envelope yet, so maybe no fancy high AOA stuff just yet.

but atleast an F-16 like performance would sufice.

To sum it up, an F-16 demo is simply all about power and tight crisp turning.
I hope we're not sugesting that the F-35 is still not allowed to do that.

After years of saying that envelope expanssion is at full swing, the aircraft is exceeding expectations in all flight regeimes etc etc.
certainly I hope we can expect much more than simply take off, repostition, hover than land right. Or basically what they did in Yuma


What is accomplished/cleared in flight test is not necessarily released immediately to the fleet. Releases to the fleet come incrementally, in Blocks, the next being 2B which will show up sometime next year.

You should expect to see largely what they saw in Yuma.
Online
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5937
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post19 Apr 2014, 19:43

zero-one wrote:Well I sure hope the B model performs well in its RIAT debut, at least let it do some crisp tight turns.
Or else its gona be a hey day for the critics again.


Screw them. If they can't be impressed with 32,000 lb (empty weight!) mach capable stealth attack fighter slowing to a perfectly controlled hover in front of their noses, then there is no winning. Especially in the UK where the pursuit of the Mach V/STOL was such a dream for so long. And the fact that a lot of the same critics who will whine about this show, are the same ones who said the F-35B would be canceled outright and never happen anyway.

Haters gonna hate. All the regular airshow stuff will come with time, Anyone who isn't impressed with the hover in of itself is not only ignorant of the aircraft and its hurdles and but the whole history of VSTOL/STOVLs trials and tribulations.

Let them whine, its the sound of victory at this point. We have come a long way from "its all doomed!!" "to "well it could have been more exciting in the show..."


i find it quite difficult to understand why the F-35 still has such limits in its flight envelope after almost a decade of development while the PAK-FA seems to have a wide flight envelope already so early in development stage.


Massive difference in not only the west's aversion to risk in test programs but emphasis on safety in airshows as well. The F-22 put on some very lackluster performances before it was fully cleared, and now it beats the tarmac up with the best of them. Moreover these F-35s are (I'm hypothesizing here) going to be flown by regular pilots not the test jockeys that are piloting Pak Fas. The F-35s that are pushing the envelope in testing are test pilots. PAKFA would never be allowed to do what it does in Russian airshows here in the states.
Choose Crews
Online
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5937
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post19 Apr 2014, 19:43

zero-one wrote:Well I sure hope the B model performs well in its RIAT debut, at least let it do some crisp tight turns.
Or else its gona be a hey day for the critics again.


Screw them. If they can't be impressed with 32,000 lb (empty weight!) mach capable stealth attack fighter slowing to a perfectly controlled hover in front of their noses, then there is no winning. Especially in the UK where the pursuit of the Mach V/STOL was such a dream for so long. And the fact that a lot of the same critics who will whine about this show, are the same ones who said the F-35B would be canceled outright and never happen anyway.

Haters gonna hate. All the regular airshow stuff will come with time, Anyone who isn't impressed with the hover in of itself is not only ignorant of the aircraft and its hurdles and but the whole history of VSTOL/STOVLs trials and tribulations.

Let them whine, its the sound of victory at this point. We have come a long way from "its all doomed!!" "to "well it could have been more exciting in the show..."


i find it quite difficult to understand why the F-35 still has such limits in its flight envelope after almost a decade of development while the PAK-FA seems to have a wide flight envelope already so early in development stage.


Massive difference in not only the west's aversion to risk in test programs but emphasis on safety in airshows as well. The F-22 put on some very lackluster performances before it was fully cleared, and now it beats the tarmac up with the best of them. Moreover these F-35s are (I'm hypothesizing here) going to be flown by regular pilots not the test jockeys that are piloting Pak Fas. The F-35s that are pushing the envelope in testing are test pilots. PAKFA would never be allowed to do what it does in Russian airshows here in the states.
Choose Crews
Offline

lookieloo

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1244
  • Joined: 16 Feb 2013, 08:04

Unread post20 Apr 2014, 07:30

zero-one wrote:Well I sure hope the B model performs well in its RIAT debut, at least let it do some crisp tight turns.
Or else its gona be a hey day for the critics again...
Critics will have their heyday no matter what. Even a successful, aggressive routine wouldn't impress dilettantes who've been jaded by decades-worth of pointless Flanker gymnastics; and the consequences of so much as one chip of paint flaking off would be even worse. Essentially, BS and his fellow chicken$hits have sucked all the fun out of the room, and no one at LM is in no mood to risk even the slightest mishap.


And as Xander said, if someone's not already impressed with the F-35's most-basic capabilities, then there's no winning in any case. The real airshow will be when some tinpot dictator, confidant in what his officers have learned from Bill Sweetman, decides to put his shiny, new Su-thirtysomethings up against "baby-seals" flying off of an amphib.
Offline

zero-one

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2166
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post20 Apr 2014, 21:36

Your right, Hard core critics and fanboys will never be satisfied, but their arguments can at least turn from "F-35 cant turn, worst maneuvering platform ever made "
to simply
"F-35 cant turn as hard as Su-3X" or something.

Besides in my experience, a lot of haters are pretty easy to convince of the A model's F-16 like attributes once you show them the stats.

In any case, id just like to share another good Swiss Hornet demo, with 2 EFTs hanging, not as good as the clean one but still pretty darn impressive.

If The B performs the same way in RIAT, then Im good with it.



Ah yes, I can see it now.
Make a composite video of Pierre Spray saying "no wing no turn" then next the video of the B doing a good tight turn of its own,
Repeat Sprey's statement, then show another turn, repeat Sprey's statement again, this time in supper slow-mo then show another turn. :devil:
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3347
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown
  • Warnings: 2

Unread post21 Apr 2014, 12:59

I like this idea... :)
Online
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5937
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post22 Apr 2014, 18:46

zero-one wrote:Your right, Hard core critics and fanboys will never be satisfied, but their arguments can at least turn from "F-35 cant turn, worst maneuvering platform ever made "
to simply
"F-35 cant turn as hard as Su-3X" or something.



We have test photos of F-35s doing amazing things, and it hasn't swayed the hard core haters.

I enjoy airshows for what they are, but they are not at all indicative of combat. its entertainment. in the west especially rules and regs are clearly spelled out for safety reasons, I never ceased to be amazed at the key pubs style "airshow youtube analytic experts" who actually watch this stuff and try to take anything away from an airplane doing a few laps and "maxing out" at a few hundred knots with no weapons.

Lastly if someone is the kind of person that thinks something sucks, until they see it in person making a few laps at an airshow, and approve of it, and upon that seal of ZOMG! approval it suddenly becomes an excellent combat platform, they are an idiot. But I see it all the time though, "I was at an airshow and I saw X do Y, that thing is awesome" No stupid, it was always awesome and you are easily impressed.

I'm just saying if you are highly skeptical of an aircraft until you see it at an airshow, you are a moron. An airshow should not be the thing that changes your mind on the combat capabilities of an aircraft. :doh:

Mark my words you will see the evolution in opinion over time. If you are the kind of idiot that is won over by an airshow, youre an easy mark. Most people are easy marks. "It turned and made noise and went quick so now I believe its great now. "

And just to finish my little rant, I never ceased to be amazed about how quickly skeptics turn into believers, but then how quickly the controversial history is adjusted to stone cold fact. in 10 years the internet will be filled with "You don't need to turn stupid, the F-35 sees in every direction it can fire 360, it doesn't need to turn" That will just become "the way" as if there was any other question or result. As if anyone ever had the nerve to question it against over hyped adversaries.

Look at all the hate thrown the F-15s way in the 1970s, even down to its size being easy to see WVR. Anyone make any complaints about the F-15? Or about it being "too big"?? Anyone? Its just a fact now that the eagle dominates the skies. How could it be any other way? You aren't going to try and tell me it can't stand up to MiG-21s right? Thats laughable now-- but at the time there were big question marks.

I had never seen a B-2 until a couple years ago, I had never seen an F-117 until after the first gulf war, and yet amazingly they performed well in combat, even without my in person approval, and I have seen them at airshows, not really entertaining from a zoom boom perspective.

I also like when things that were "bad" become "good" like the F-15 is big so it can carry a lot of missiles and fuel. being "too big" became good.

I'm waiting for the noisy F-35 to scare off some bad guys without firing off a shot and then the legend of the time the F-35 was so loud it actually mad bad guys run without firing a shot can begin, suddenly the noise becomes a combat attribute "everyone knows when an F-35 is flying around low" says the smiling company commander. "we just love the F-35 it can go wherever we can and the noise is awesome, my boys love the sound and the bad guys are terrified of it, we have had times where a low pass had them packing"

Don't discount that either, I know people in the army who say they love the A-10 and its gun just for the SOUND it makes, and the sound of the impact of the rounds. And that its a morale boost to those on the ground just to see it. A lot of this stuff is psychological. that approval then turns to stories, that turn into legends.

typically "airshow approval" is slow civilians coming around to things the military promoted desired and clamored for for years--with civilians kicking and screaming the whole way. It also helps to talk to the people there. just as the A-10 story I related above people put a lot of stock into face to face talk with someone in uniform with war stories.

I would love for the internet haters to go to VMFA-121 for a week and talk to the people there and see the F-35 fly and talk to the people who fly it and actually try to spout the BS they preach online to these people in person and just watch them get cock smacked with knowledge and experience.

I gaurentee you in 7 days they would go from haters to lovers. This is the reason the military likes to "embed" reporters BTW. You think Sol, or David Axe, or Doug Allen, would have the balls to actually tell the F-35 operators "no, your wrong" and attempt to engage in debate? (If they did, how long would it take for the people who actually do this for a living to shut them up?) or would they smile and ask for autographs and pictures? and turn into docile fanboys at least for the duration they are on base?

Look what a ride in the back of an F-18F did for Kopp. nothing but smiles and sunshine for years. then it suddenly sucked, because the RAAF got it. (I guess airplanes fly differently in Australia?) A one hour symposim with a few F-35 pilots debunked months of garbage reporting in one fell swoop, And I didn't see any reporter screaming about how wrong all the guys who fly the F-35 for a living are.

This is why in the great F-35 internet debate war of (2008- 20??) there is such a hurry to discredit test pilots and now F-35 pilots in general. You can't have the guy who actually flies the thing saying its great. How does that look? it makes it seem like the aircraft doesn't suck and might actually be good or even great like he says. OK well he is just being bribed and paid off then. Which is highly offensive when you sit back and think about it. So this guy who's brothers depend on this thing with their life is lying about it to make money?

Remember though that if a pilot says something negative about the F-35 it is the gospel, and he is not being bribed by an F-35 rival company. your crazy conspiracy theories have no place here, how dare you call his honor into question?

The people who are going to complain about the F-35B being "boring" at RIAT need to get over themselves, and read a god damn book. sound advice for a lot of situations I am discovering.

There would be some exceptions, namely professional aviation writers who are harder to impress and have some hard fought agendas. but at the least the rhetoric would be toned down from them.


Besides in my experience, a lot of haters are pretty easy to convince of the A model's F-16 like attributes once you show them the stats.


Well thats good at least.


Ah yes, I can see it now.
Make a composite video of Pierre Spray saying "no wing no turn" then next the video of the B doing a good tight turn of its own,
Repeat Sprey's statement, then show another turn, repeat Sprey's statement again, this time in supper slow-mo then show another turn. :devil:


That would be funny.
Last edited by XanderCrews on 22 Apr 2014, 18:59, edited 1 time in total.
Choose Crews
Online
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5937
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post22 Apr 2014, 18:46

ach double
Choose Crews
PreviousNext

Return to F-35 milestones

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests