GE Aviation’s future fighter engine TECHNOLOGY XA100

All about the Pratt & Whitney F135 and the (cancelled) General Electric/Rolls-Royce F136
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popcorn

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Unread post17 Jun 2019, 08:31

Dragon029 wrote:
popcorn wrote:What engine. Is being referred to at the 7:52 mark?


https://www.aviationtoday.com/2018/10/1 ... nbaa-2018/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_Affinity


Thank you.
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Unread post17 Jun 2019, 10:06

Dragon029 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Could we see the winner of a future 6th Generation Engine Program. (XA-100 or XA-101) Going to one or both of the NGAD and/or PCA. While, the loser could upgrade the F-35??? Especially, if the loser is the XA-101? (P&W)


The engine that goes into the F-35 and the engine that goes into the NGAD / PCA have been regarded as separate in past discussions. The XA100 / XA101 is currently designed more or less specifically for the F-35, while the next gen will either get the same engine (F110/F100 style on the F-15/F-16), or a variation (F119/F135 style) tailored for the NGAD / PCA (perhaps with some component commonality).

Regardless though, the winner of the AETP program is probably going to want the F-35 contract; it is a single engine fighter, but 1x 3500+ engines > 2x 500-1000 engines. The loser and winner will likely get to re-compete over the other programs as there'll be a few extra years to make improvements to reliability, cost, etc and potentially come up with something that's even better value.

popcorn wrote:What engine. Is being referred to at the 7:52 mark?


https://www.aviationtoday.com/2018/10/1 ... nbaa-2018/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_Affinity



Production should be slowing down post 2035-2040 for F-35. When the PCA and NGAD come online. So, don't see the AETP Winner being as interested in the F-35 vs latter two. Unless the AETP come online far earlier???
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Unread post17 Jun 2019, 10:45

Corsair1963 wrote:[
Production should be slowing down post 2035-2040 for F-35. When the PCA and NGAD come online. So, don't see the AETP Winner being as interested in the F-35 vs latter two. Unless the AETP come online far earlier???

The potential for new-build F-35s and the probability of swapping out thousands of F135s may present the larger opportunity.
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Unread post17 Jun 2019, 13:52

Corsair1963 wrote:
Dragon029 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Could we see the winner of a future 6th Generation Engine Program. (XA-100 or XA-101) Going to one or both of the NGAD and/or PCA. While, the loser could upgrade the F-35??? Especially, if the loser is the XA-101? (P&W)


The engine that goes into the F-35 and the engine that goes into the NGAD / PCA have been regarded as separate in past discussions. The XA100 / XA101 is currently designed more or less specifically for the F-35, while the next gen will either get the same engine (F110/F100 style on the F-15/F-16), or a variation (F119/F135 style) tailored for the NGAD / PCA (perhaps with some component commonality).

Regardless though, the winner of the AETP program is probably going to want the F-35 contract; it is a single engine fighter, but 1x 3500+ engines > 2x 500-1000 engines. The loser and winner will likely get to re-compete over the other programs as there'll be a few extra years to make improvements to reliability, cost, etc and potentially come up with something that's even better value.

popcorn wrote:What engine. Is being referred to at the 7:52 mark?


https://www.aviationtoday.com/2018/10/1 ... nbaa-2018/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_Affinity



Production should be slowing down post 2035-2040 for F-35. When the PCA and NGAD come online. So, don't see the AETP Winner being as interested in the F-35 vs latter two. Unless the AETP come online far earlier???


As stated previously, there are two different phases. The above XA100 and XA101 are competing for the F-35 re-engining in the mid-2020’s, that stage of the AETP program runs till 2021, presumably they will choose to integrate one of the two after phase of the program wraps up (though P&W is pushing the F135 GO 1.0 & 2.0 to head this off). The June, 2018 contract modification suggests that an engine derivative will be developed for any “future air superiority applications” in phase 2 which runs after 2021.
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Unread post17 Jun 2019, 13:56

The first being limited to the F-35 engine-bay's physical dimensions. The follow-on is not.
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Unread post17 Jun 2019, 18:34

fbw wrote:As stated previously, there are two different phases. The above XA100 and XA101 are competing for the F-35 re-engining in the mid-2020’s, that stage of the AETP program runs till 2021, presumably they will choose to integrate one of the two after phase of the program wraps up (though P&W is pushing the F135 GO 1.0 & 2.0 to head this off).


I wonder if they could end up with BOTH, like they currently have with the F-15/-16. (F100-220 being replaced with F110-129 or F100-229.)
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Unread post17 Jun 2019, 23:48

Corsair1963 wrote:
Dragon029 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Could we see the winner of a future 6th Generation Engine Program. (XA-100 or XA-101) Going to one or both of the NGAD and/or PCA. While, the loser could upgrade the F-35??? Especially, if the loser is the XA-101? (P&W)


The engine that goes into the F-35 and the engine that goes into the NGAD / PCA have been regarded as separate in past discussions. The XA100 / XA101 is currently designed more or less specifically for the F-35, while the next gen will either get the same engine (F110/F100 style on the F-15/F-16), or a variation (F119/F135 style) tailored for the NGAD / PCA (perhaps with some component commonality).

Regardless though, the winner of the AETP program is probably going to want the F-35 contract; it is a single engine fighter, but 1x 3500+ engines > 2x 500-1000 engines. The loser and winner will likely get to re-compete over the other programs as there'll be a few extra years to make improvements to reliability, cost, etc and potentially come up with something that's even better value.

popcorn wrote:What engine. Is being referred to at the 7:52 mark?


https://www.aviationtoday.com/2018/10/1 ... nbaa-2018/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_Affinity



Production should be slowing down post 2035-2040 for F-35. When the PCA and NGAD come online. So, don't see the AETP Winner being as interested in the F-35 vs latter two. Unless the AETP come online far earlier???


The upgraded F-35 motors should be available in the 2020s (probably by Block 5, but maybe sooner.) Of course there's the potential for keeping older jets at a common configuration, which would mean a lot more business than just new production jets.
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Unread post17 Jun 2019, 23:58

fbw wrote: The June, 2018 contract modification suggests that an engine derivative will be developed for any “future air superiority applications” in phase 2 which runs after 2021.



Or it's just the flight test portion which AETP didn't originally envision.
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Unread post18 Jun 2019, 00:41

marauder2048 wrote:
fbw wrote: The June, 2018 contract modification suggests that an engine derivative will be developed for any “future air superiority applications” in phase 2 which runs after 2021.



Or it's just the flight test portion which AETP didn't originally envision.


Not according to GE’s general manager for the program, but clarity is lacking on several fronts in regards to future F-35 propulsion and what is going to come out of NGAD.

In an interview with FlightGlobal, Dan McCormick, GE’s general manager for the Advanced Combat Engine Programme, agrees that the AETP demonstrators are “F-35 design-centric”. The new programme awarded in June is aimed at the next generation of aircraft, he says.

In keeping with the USAF’s secretive approach to defining the next air superiority fighter, critical details of the new programme — including its work scope and name — are not released.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ut-450053/
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Unread post18 Jun 2019, 01:17

fbw wrote:
marauder2048 wrote:
fbw wrote: The June, 2018 contract modification suggests that an engine derivative will be developed for any “future air superiority applications” in phase 2 which runs after 2021.



Or it's just the flight test portion which AETP didn't originally envision.


Not according to GE’s general manager for the program, but clarity is lacking on several fronts in regards to future F-35 propulsion and what is going to come out of NGAD.

In an interview with FlightGlobal, Dan McCormick, GE’s general manager for the Advanced Combat Engine Programme, agrees that the AETP demonstrators are “F-35 design-centric”. The new programme awarded in June is aimed at the next generation of aircraft, he says.

In keeping with the USAF’s secretive approach to defining the next air superiority fighter, critical details of the new programme — including its work scope and name — are not released.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ut-450053/


New program/new effort or just Trimble putting words in that guy's mouth; the award was under the original
AETP contract.
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Unread post18 Jun 2019, 11:54

"While neither GE nor Pratt have released details of their adaptive-engine design, both incorporate variable geometry devices that dynamically alter the fan pressure ratio and overall bypass ratio—the two key factors influencing specific fuel consumption and thrust. The adaptive, multistage fan boosts fan pressure ratio to fighter engine performance levels during takeoff and acceleration, and in cruise lowers it to transport aircraft-like levels for improved fuel efficiency. The third stream, which is external to both the core and standard bypass duct, is used to alter the bypass ratio."

Adaptive Change

»GE and P&W defining sixth-gen fighter engine designs under Adaptive Engine Transition Program (AETP)

»USAF adopts new engine-naming convention to recognize importance of adaptive cycle

»GE developing XA100, Pratt developing XA101

»Initial engine sized at 45,000-lb.-thrust to suit F-35


»Production A100/101 derivatives targeted at F-X and F/A-XX

https://aviationweek.com/propulsion/six ... udies-ramp

"The work is being conducted under the U.S. Air Force’s Adaptive Engine Transition Program (AETP), a broadbased initiative launched in 2016 to mature variable-cycle technology for sixth-generation fighters as well as, potentially, provide a future re-engining option for the Pratt & Whitney F135-powered Lockheed Martin F-35. The program, which also leverages earlier variable-cycle testing conducted under the Air Force Research Laboratory’s Adaptive Engine Technology Development program (AETD), is initially focused on demonstrators in the 45,000-lb.-thrust range.

Even as GE works on the XA100 demonstrator and Pratt develops its virtually identically sized XA101 counterpart, both are also now working on additional clean-sheet adaptive engine concepts specifically for sixth-generation designs. Awarded as modifications to the original AETP program agreement, the contracts for this new work cover a broader application of other advanced engine technologies—including three-stream architecture—and go beyond the limiting confines of the F-35-centric XA100/101 demonstrators."

https://aviationweek.com/combat-aircraf ... ork-spools
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Unread post24 Jun 2019, 20:56

sferrin wrote:I wonder if they could end up with BOTH, like they currently have with the F-15/-16. (F100-220 being replaced with F110-129 or F100-229.)


Like all the countries lined up to replace their PW-220s with PW-229s, and their GE-100s to GE-129s? :lmao:

Besides the 'kit' to upgrade the PW-200s to PW-220, I don't think anything beyond a handful of ANG/USAF Block 42s have received NEW build engines to replace their older ones.

Hell, the USAF even ran 30 year old PW-100s in their ANG Eagles until the ANG freed up PW-220s from their Viper fleet that were 'hand-me-downed'. The USAF is talking about PW-220s being used through 2045!? Why wouldn't you replace them after 30 years with 'new' motors with newer tech. PW-220s will be almost 60 years old by 2045!

If I remember correctly, the USAF was spending more PER YEAR per engine, to overhaul/maintain the F100-PW-100s than each engine cost new in the 1970s!

Even these countries moving to "F-16V Standard" (or whatever pet program suffix/name they have) fail to spend the $5M+ per aircraft to purchase new build motors GE or PW. They still run their PW-220s or GE-100s. It seems they're not interested spending THAT much $$ for the additional power, lower fuel burn, or reduced maintenance costs.

Just sayin'....

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Unread post24 Jun 2019, 21:25

sferrin wrote:
»GE and P&W defining sixth-gen fighter engine designs under Adaptive Engine Transition Program (AETP)

»USAF adopts new engine-naming convention to recognize importance of adaptive cycle

»GE developing XA100, Pratt developing XA101

»Initial engine sized at 45,000-lb.-thrust to suit F-35


»Production A100/101 derivatives targeted at F-X and F/A-XX


Naturally, you'd build production derivatives for airframes that don't exist.


sferrin wrote:the contracts for this new work cover a broader application of other advanced engine technologies—including three-stream architecture—and go beyond the limiting confines of the F-35-centric XA100/101 demonstrators."


Limiting confines..for what I think is the largest turbofan installed on any production fighter.
Unless they are arguing that the DSI capture area isn't adequate.
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Unread post25 Jun 2019, 01:08

That_Engine_Guy wrote:
sferrin wrote:I wonder if they could end up with BOTH, like they currently have with the F-15/-16. (F100-220 being replaced with F110-129 or F100-229.)


Like all the countries lined up to replace their PW-220s with PW-229s, and their GE-100s to GE-129s? :lmao:
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You'll note there are both -229s and -129s available if somebody wants them. That's all I'm suggesting.
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Unread post25 Jun 2019, 01:10

marauder2048 wrote:
sferrin wrote:
»GE and P&W defining sixth-gen fighter engine designs under Adaptive Engine Transition Program (AETP)

»USAF adopts new engine-naming convention to recognize importance of adaptive cycle

»GE developing XA100, Pratt developing XA101

»Initial engine sized at 45,000-lb.-thrust to suit F-35


»Production A100/101 derivatives targeted at F-X and F/A-XX


Naturally, you'd build production derivatives for airframes that don't exist.


sferrin wrote:the contracts for this new work cover a broader application of other advanced engine technologies—including three-stream architecture—and go beyond the limiting confines of the F-35-centric XA100/101 demonstrators."


Limiting confines..for what I think is the largest turbofan installed on any production fighter.
Unless they are arguing that the DSI capture area isn't adequate.


Not sure what your point is here. I was pointing out that the initial effort will be restricted by the F135 physical envelope. The follow-on derivatives would not be. (And yes, the follow on derivatives would be larger and more powerful.)

TLDR: Initial effort can't be bigger than the F135 else it won't fit. The follow-on doesn't have that restriction.
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