F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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swiss

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Unread post26 Sep 2017, 21:14

gta4 wrote:And I guess he didn't say "Rafale can do the 6 o'clock shot without 3rd party targeting :mrgreen: "


swiss wrote:
And the Rafale Pilot confirms, the Rafale can do a 6 o'clock shot with a Mica IR thanks to Spectra on its own, without help from a other Rafale or AWACS. I ask him twice to make sure he understand me right.

:wink:

And it seems to be true when i read last view pages.
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cavok

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Unread post27 Sep 2017, 12:48

swiss wrote:
cavok wrote:Just because it is beautiful. Enjoy the half roll landing...
Last (or so) demo of Cpt "Marty" Martinez at Sion (swiss)




Thank you for the Video.

BTW, that was the French Pilot that said to me, the Rafale can do a 6 o'clock shot. :wink:

*
Isn't Marty a very nice and talkable man?
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cavok

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Unread post27 Sep 2017, 13:56

spazsinbad wrote:Yes the HALF LOOP / Half Cuban Eight landing was impressive. The rest was?.... meh. I don't get it - terrific scenery. :doh:


Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder... See comments down?

@Eloise, could "talk" to Yves.

Confirmations of the role of DDM-NG came from Jean Dupont, Group Head Media Relations, MBDA. Funny story i can tell you in pm if you wish.

Another confirmation came directly from JR Vianney

The reason why it is not fully used yet is that it had to be the very same interface as former DDM. next spectra upgrade (F3R) will use it fully.

DDM is part of Spectra, do not expect communications about it and its capabilities.
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eloise

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Unread post27 Sep 2017, 17:23

cavok wrote:Confirmations of the role of DDM-NG came from Jean Dupont, Group Head Media Relations, MBDA. Funny story
DDM is part of Spectra, do not expect communications about it and its capabilities.

Is there a video or articles from reputable publications about that?, and your conclusion make no sense, if it is secret enough that you can't get information about its capabilities through official sources, then you won't get it from a random chat either.
To be honest, in this day and ages when we can hardly trust newspapers, it kinda hard for us to take your words without some strong evidences.
P/s: Iam still waiting for answers from the other day.

cavok wrote:Yes. I'm not english native, but i think you understood waht was told to me. while tracking the other aircraft, the Rafale could record the effects of doppler effect on ennemy radar signal. Monitoring these effects will give you an idea of the evolution of the distance between bandit and you

I don't know why i missed this, but the only way i see this possible is if enemy radar doesn't use frequency hoping.
Last edited by eloise on 27 Sep 2017, 18:16, edited 1 time in total.
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blindpilot

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Unread post27 Sep 2017, 18:04

eloise wrote:
cavok wrote:Confirmations of the role of DDM-NG came from Jean Dupont, Group Head Media Relations, MBDA. Funny story
DDM is part of Spectra, do not expect communications about it and its capabilities.

Is there a video or articles from reputable publications about that?, and your conclusion make no sense, if it is secret enough that you can't get information about its capabilities through official sources, then you won't get it from a random chat either.
To be honest, in this day and ages when we can hardly trust newspapers, it kinda hard for us to take your words without some strong evidences.
P/s: Iam still waiting for answers from the other day.


Well, we can see some basic potential capabilities with published public info. For example ...
ddm spectra sensor.jpg
DDM-IR Sensor location on tail


The two fisheye DDM-IR lens on the tail provide "near" 360 horizontal view. They clearly do have some limitation in the range of spherical coverage, especially forward below the wing, (where SAM launches would come from?) and also above the lens cover, but an EOTS pod could get some of that. Basically, horizontal angular data (plus or minus elevation limits) from the sensors clearly seen above would have input, based on whatever the array resolution is (which I haven't seen published). We have to assume that SPECTRA will process (and fuse?) the data that arrangement could provide. While not a full spherical, six camera system, with high rez sensors, it has some obvious capabilities (and limitations) just seen in the picture above. It should provide good angular data at six oclock, at roughly the same altitude, for example. It has some obvious blind spots such as forward and below.

FWIW,
BP
Last edited by blindpilot on 27 Sep 2017, 18:40, edited 1 time in total.
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eloise

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Unread post27 Sep 2017, 18:10

blindpilot wrote:Well, we can see some basic potential capabilities with published public info. For example ...
ddm spectra sensor.jpg

The two fisheye DDM-IR lens on the tail provide "near" 360 horizontal view.

Yes, but from what i understand, current DDM-NG operates like AAR-56. They are IIR sensors, but they doesn't provide video to the pilot helmet like DAS. I also skeptical that it can track targets like DAS
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Unread post27 Sep 2017, 18:50

eloise wrote:
blindpilot wrote:Well, we can see some basic potential capabilities with published public info. For example ...
ddm spectra sensor.jpg

The two fisheye DDM-IR lens on the tail provide "near" 360 horizontal view.

Yes, but from what i understand, current DDM-NG operates like AAR-56. They are IIR sensors, but they doesn't provide video to the pilot helmet like DAS. I also skeptical that it can track targets like DAS


I agree with your hesitation. But honestly, in a fused system it works with the avatar more than raw video, and tracking is more related to the computer fusion capability than the sensor, per se. The sensor will simply report the real time angular data to the SPECTRA system. (with limitations seen above) What it does with that ... well .. we don't know. I'm not convinced of range data, but that too can be from computer processing of the raw data... which per this conversation, we simply don't know. That's sort of the question.

MHO,
BP
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ricnunes

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Unread post27 Sep 2017, 19:35

eloise wrote:
cavok wrote:Confirmations of the role of DDM-NG came from Jean Dupont, Group Head Media Relations, MBDA. Funny story
DDM is part of Spectra, do not expect communications about it and its capabilities.


Is there a video or articles from reputable publications about that?, and your conclusion make no sense, if it is secret enough that you can't get information about its capabilities through official sources, then you won't get it from a random chat either.


I fully agree with you eloise.

I won't bother addressing your otherwise well made point of getting "secrets" from random chats but not from official sources, this besides fully agreeing with you and moreover, if the DDM-NG really had similar capabilities to the F-35's DAS why would this be a secret??
It's not like having such a capability is something that could be considered "top secret"! For example one only needs to head over Youtube to see how DAS works and what its general capabilities are. So how come an inferior system (DDM-NG) have secret capabilities even if it would have similar capabilities compared to DAS while DAS does not? That doesn't make any sense at all! This also wouldn't make sense in the "Rafale Marketing" point of view (which is very important to any Rafale exports) since there aren't many other features that would or could give the Rafale a major boost in Marketing than mentioning that it (Rafale) has similar capabilities compared to the F-35 when it comes to a 360º/spherical covering IIR sensor set.

Also and incurring the risk of repeating myself, the official information from MBDA clearly states that the DDM-NG is only used as a Missile Warning System (MWS) or resuming the DDM-NG is the MWS component of SPECTRA. And while MBDA claims on official sources that future extra applications could be "foreseen" for the DDM-NG, note the true and actual meaning of the "foreseen" word - As I see it, there's even a good chance that there isn't even a real or actual study on the subject.

Anyway, such capability while theoretically possible would definitely require a very extensive and complex modification of the existing Software while at the same time the need to add new and complex Software code (which could help the DDM-NG discriminate between different kinds of "targets"/objects detected by the DDM-NG) and together with this LOTS and LOTS of associated funds and years of research and testing.
Honestly I can't see the addition of such capability in what is an update of the current F3 version, in this case the F3R.

Maybe I could believe that such capability could eventually be added in the F4 update but I certainly don't believe it for F3R (unless and again, I'm proven wrong with some factual and actual evidence backing up).
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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cavok

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Unread post27 Sep 2017, 21:31

eloise wrote:
blindpilot wrote:Well, we can see some basic potential capabilities with published public info. For example ...
ddm spectra sensor.jpg

The two fisheye DDM-IR lens on the tail provide "near" 360 horizontal view.

Yes, but from what i understand, current DDM-NG operates like AAR-56. They are IIR sensors, but they doesn't provide video to the pilot helmet like DAS. I also skeptical that it can track targets like DAS


It doese not track target in itself, but feeds datafusion afaik.

The capacity of a single Rafale to locate and track a threat without resorting to traditional, but time-consuming, methods of triangulation or earing measurements along the aircraft flightpath will be significantly improved


speaking of F4 standard. AFM monthly. http://indiandefence.com/attachments/r4-jpg.6995/
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swiss

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Unread post28 Sep 2017, 20:44

cavok wrote:Isn't Marty a very nice and talkable man?


Yes he is a nice guy. But he seems to be in hurry. And his english has a strong french accent. :wink:

To be honest, i was always thinking every Fighter with a LOAL Missiles can do a 6 o'clock shot without a 3 party. So im surprised that only a F-35 can do a "real" 6 o'clock shot, and the Rafale under special conditions?
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ricnunes

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Unread post28 Sep 2017, 21:31

cavok wrote:speaking of F4 standard. AFM monthly. http://indiandefence.com/attachments/r4-jpg.6995/


Error! (when clicking on the link)
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post29 Sep 2017, 15:34

Still requires an account to access the images. Please post on a free hosting site like imgur.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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Unread post29 Sep 2017, 15:46

I will not post scans of AFM. They are on indian defence forum, thread Rafale deal is signed, p. 451. I went there on anon., so i guess one do not really need account?
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Unread post29 Sep 2017, 16:07

cavok wrote:I will not post scans of AFM. They are on indian defence forum, thread Rafale deal is signed, p. 451. I went there on anon., so i guess one do not really need account?

Nahh, can't access the image either. Kinda pointless to post a link no one can acess.
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