F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

[ricnunes]

i understand what you're trying to get at ricnunes, that perhaps the rafale also has a certain angle that exposes as much of the turbine face as the super bug, but from the photos available on the internet it's pretty impressive how serpentine the duct is...
... perhaps the magic angle you're looking for exists in between this viewpoint and the earlier one posted.

I'm not looking for any "magical angle". What I'm looking for is the exact same angle in the Rafale air intakes as we see in the Super Hornet's air intakes photo, or resuming a direct and frontal angle shot/photo of the Rafale's air intakes where the engine/turbine blades can be seen.

For example in the photo that you shared (great photo by the way, thanks for sharing) the angle seems in my opinion to have been clearly taken from a left to right angle and smaller differences in angles can change how we (Human beings) perceive (or see) things.

By looking at several Rafale's air intake photos I'm even willing to accept that a larger percentage/part of the engine/turbine blades in the Rafale is hidden by the duct compared to the Super Hornet.
However what I don't agree (specially by looking at all the photos) is that the engine/turbine blades in the Rafale are "completely" or "totally" hidden from frontal radar emissions (as some seem to have suggested here).

[halloweene]

i understand what you're trying to get at ricnunes, that perhaps the rafale also has a certain angle that exposes as much of the turbine face as the super bug, but from the photos available on the internet it's pretty impressive how serpentine the duct is...
... perhaps the magic angle you're looking for exists in between this viewpoint and the earlier one posted.

I'm not looking for any "magical angle". What I'm looking for is the exact same angle in the Rafale air intakes as we see in the Super Hornet's air intakes photo, or resuming a direct and frontal angle shot/photo of the Rafale's air intakes where the engine/turbine blades can be seen.

For example in the photo that you shared (great photo by the way, thanks for sharing) the angle seems in my opinion to have been clearly taken from a left to right angle and smaller differences in angles can change how we (Human beings) perceive (or see) things.

By looking at several Rafale's air intake photos I'm even willing to accept that a larger percentage/part of the engine/turbine blades in the Rafale is hidden by the duct compared to the Super Hornet.
However what I don't agree (specially by looking at all the photos) is that the engine/turbine blades in the Rafale are "completely" or "totally" hidden from frontal radar emissions (as some seem to have suggested here).

Havin looked inside, i'd say 80% are hidden.one would need really unlucky radar beam angle to see it.

[talkitron]

This is a great article on a leading Indian military blog about the Rafale ecosystem. You learn a lot about training systems and mission planning systems, among other fun details.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/07/14696.html

[jetblast16]

In its airshow configuration, the Rafale has an unbelievable instantaneous turn and roll rate, but the F-35 is next league

[halloweene]

Future SDB like armaments of Rafale.... In french (google is your friend)

http://www.portail-aviation.com/2017/07 ... -mbda.html

[bring_it_on]

What seeker options are they exploring for this weapon? The linked article and others I have read lack specifics about various configurations but reading I do get the sense that it will have multiple versions one with the IR/Visual sensor and another with the radar.

[halloweene]

What seeker options are they exploring for this weapon? The linked article and others I have read lack specifics about various configurations but reading I do get the sense that it will have multiple versions one with the IR/Visual sensor and another with the radar.

INS/GPS or , EO, laser, RDR, combinations depending on customer requirements.

[bring_it_on]

That is vague. Of course they can fit in a rocket on it if the customer wants it but which versions are going to be developed and fielded? Will it have a single mode, dual mode or tri mode seeker and which combination is referred to in the specifications shared by the company? Are we to believe that they can have a GPS version, an IIR version, and an RF version or a version that combines all of the above within at the same weight class as one or two mode options? These are some of the things unanswered at launch at least from what I have been able to read up. One smart thing they have done is retained the guidance for a 2000 lb weapon. This could allow some economies of scale for cost reasons since SDBI and II are high volume production programs.

EDIT: Here is what Jane's Missiles and Rockets wrote for their detailed piece on the weapon family. A bit vague but as I read things, I see the configruation evolving if more capability is added above the baseline but as things stand this is more of an SDB analogous rather than an SDB II or Spear analogous that will at a higher price point assume some SDB II capability.

MBDA is offering a basic option of SmartGlider featuring GPS/GNSS/ INS navigation with a semi-active laser (SAL) sensor for terminal guidance. An enhanced version (available as a higher-cost option) adds to the basic guidance option a combined, low-band visible electro-optic (EO)/ uncooled infrared (IR) seeker (leveraged from MBDA's Missile Moyenne Portée) with automatic target recognition. In the future, navigation could be enhanced with a synthetic aperture radar (SAR) capability.

The warhead on both variants - SmartGlider Light and SmartGlider Heavy - is integral to the body of the missile, and effectively comprises a minimum two-thirds of the munition, said Moussez. The design of the 80 kg warhead for SmartGlider Light has yet to be finalised, although Moussez said that a scalable-effects warhead - potentially designed by MBDA's subsidiary, TDW - is a potential option, if required.

[XanderCrews]

Future SDB like armaments of Rafale.... In french (google is your friend)

http://www.portail-aviation.com/2017/07 ... -mbda.html

The French equivalent of the JDAM costs about 10 times what the US variant does. No thanks. Anyone that buys this this airplane has money to burn on a small fleet , loaded with proprietary parts.

This is what India discovered themselves the hard way

[SpudmanWP]

I wonder how well France is going to support the NUAI (NATO UAI) standard? This will put a tight squeeze on these types of "our planes require our munitions) types of deals.

[halloweene]

Future SDB like armaments of Rafale.... In french (google is your friend)

http://www.portail-aviation.com/2017/07 ... -mbda.html

The French equivalent of the JDAM costs about 10 times what the US variant does. No thanks. Anyone that buys this this airplane has money to burn on a small fleet , loaded with proprietary parts.

This is what India discovered themselves the hard way

Completely false, nevermind (costs of JDAM equivaent), which equivalent there isn't any. The only "near equivalent" would be the incoming AASM block iv "evolution" without engine... And we do not k now their price depending on configurations.
About that "with my weapons only", Spice bmobs are integrated for indian Rafale, aswell as Astra missile will be. For the sake of information, Rafale isfully stanag compatible.

[halloweene]

That is vague. Of course they can fit in a rocket on it if the customer wants it but which versions are going to be developed and fielded? Will it have a single mode, dual mode or tri mode seeker and which combination is referred to in the specifications shared by the company? Are we to believe that they can have a GPS version, an IIR version, and an RF version or a version that combines all of the above within at the same weight class as one or two mode options? These are some of the things unanswered at launch at least from what I have been able to read up. One smart thing they have done is retained the guidance for a 2000 lb weapon. This could allow some economies of scale for cost reasons since SDBI and II are high volume production programs.

EDIT: Here is what Jane's Missiles and Rockets wrote for their detailed piece on the weapon family. A bit vague but as I read things, I see the configruation evolving if more capability is added above the baseline but as things stand this is more of an SDB analogous rather than an SDB II or Spear analogous that will at a higher price point assume some SDB II capability.

MBDA is offering a basic option of SmartGlider featuring GPS/GNSS/ INS navigation with a semi-active laser (SAL) sensor for terminal guidance. An enhanced version (available as a higher-cost option) adds to the basic guidance option a combined, low-band visible electro-optic (EO)/ uncooled infrared (IR) seeker (leveraged from MBDA's Missile Moyenne Portée) with automatic target recognition. In the future, navigation could be enhanced with a synthetic aperture radar (SAR) capability.

The warhead on both variants - SmartGlider Light and SmartGlider Heavy - is integral to the body of the missile, and effectively comprises a minimum two-thirds of the munition, said Moussez. The design of the 80 kg warhead for SmartGlider Light has yet to be finalised, although Moussez said that a scalable-effects warhead - potentially designed by MBDA's subsidiary, TDW - is a potential option, if required.

Point is it will have SDBII precision and SDBI power.+ scalable effects + ITAR free. And MBDA do claim they wll be competitive.

[SpudmanWP]

Completely false, nevermind (costs of JDAM equivaent),

JDAM is a very modular system that includes GPS, LGB, and HOBS for the sensors and even a wing kit for extended range. There is even a jet engine in the works.



On the cost issue.. Yeah, good luck finding actual production costs for each version. Too bad other countries don't follow the US model and make non-black project costs public every year.

[bring_it_on]

Point is it will have SDBII precision and SDBI power.+ scalable effects + ITAR free. And MBDA do claim they wll be competitive.

SDBII is a more flexibility weapon thanks to a tri mode seeker that combines IIR SAL and MMW features. It gives options of all weather attack for all sorts of different target sets. If you show up with a SAL+GPS/INS or an alternate configuration with GPS/INS+IIR front end you may get an accurate weapon but you will not get one as flexible as it. This is simple common sense..multi-mode options doesn't exist just for the kicks of it, it is there to provide flexibility in employing the weapon from various manned, unmanned, penetrating and stand off platforms.

And MBDA do claim they wll be competitive.

Unless you subsidize something the only way to be price competitive with something that has a 5 digit production assurance is to either produce at equal economies of scale, produce in cheaper economies where technology access is not a barrier but cost of labor is much less, or incorporate simpler lower cost technology. SDBI+SDBII is a 45-50K munition assured production program (min) and likely well over 60K once you factor in exports and follow-on orders. For context the current SDB buy is being increased by 7000+ weapons in FY18 alone..more in 19 and 20.

Boeing would have delivered well over 20,000 SDB Is by the time the first weapon configuration of this is handed over to its first customer, and Raytheon is likely to be well into the 3000s in terms of SDBII delivery as well. These are high volume (relatively) programs and ITAR does not play a significant role here. No SDB I or II customer is likely to be denied the weapon and the former is alreday exported to many nations around the world.

[halloweene]

Completely false, nevermind (costs of JDAM equivaent),

JDAM is a very modular system that includes GPS, LGB, and HOBS for the sensors and even a wing kit for extended range. There is even a jet engine in the works.



On the cost issue.. Yeah, good luck finding actual production costs for each version. Too bad other countries don't follow the US model and make non-black project costs public every year.

There is NO french equivalent armament. Therefore nstating it is 3 times moren expensive is well... To stay polite unsubstanciated.