F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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gta4

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Unread post16 Sep 2020, 03:44

loke wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
loke wrote:
The future Greek Rafales maybe better than the Turkish F-16's. Yet, not markedly so.... :shock:

Incorrect; the future Greek Rafale will be significantly better than the Turkish F-16. Just look at how much better the Rafale scored compared to the Swiss Hornets, back in 2008; The Rafale has evolved quite significantly since then.

Another reference point is the Indian MMRCA; only Rafale and Typhoon made the cut, but of those two the IAF ranked Rafale higher than the Typhoon. The F-16 block 70 offered to India was much stronger than the Turkish F-16 but wasn't even shortlisted.

The Rafale has much better situational awareness, much better radar, and with Meteor, a missile with much larger NEZ. The EW capabilities is also much better. The Greek pilots are also very good. The Turkish F-16s will struggle. The major weak point of the Greek Rafale will be that they will be way too few.


Correction: F-16 block70 was not shortlisted because India required the F16 to carry CFTs to perform flight test.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post16 Sep 2020, 07:46

jessmo112 wrote:Note a S-400 on the Bosphorus straight would cover alot of greece. Rafales would die after wheels up.


No they would not as the radar horizon would prevent S-400 from seeing them until they were getting higher than 10,000ft. For 400 km range those Rafales would need to get to ovet 30,000ft before being seen by S-400 radars. Of course the max effective range of any SAM system is not the effective range against small and agile fighter aircraft. It's usually about half of the max range unless target is completely surprised by the missile shot and I doubt that will happen with Rafale.

Sure S-400 (or any modern long range SAM system) is a serious threat to any 4th gen fighter, but it's not a Death Star or something like that. I'd say that if Turkey got their F-35s, then Rafale would be pretty much irrelevant. Against S-400, it has more options with cruise missiles and low level flight profiles. Rafale also has very good chances against current Turkish aircraft. Also Greece could use their ATACMS rockets against S-400s, so the Turkish would likely keep their S-400s a bit further away to avoid losing them.
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loke

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Unread post16 Sep 2020, 08:59

gta4 wrote:Correction: F-16 block70 was not shortlisted because India required the F16 to carry CFTs to perform flight test.

Do you have a source for this claim? None of the two shortlisted MMCRA contenders carried CFTs.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post16 Sep 2020, 09:38

With the US fast tracking the development of a 6th Generation Fighter. You would have to be crazy to even consider a 4th Generation Type........

:doh:
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gta4

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Unread post16 Sep 2020, 16:03

loke wrote:
gta4 wrote:Correction: F-16 block70 was not shortlisted because India required the F16 to carry CFTs to perform flight test.

Do you have a source for this claim? None of the two shortlisted MMCRA contenders carried CFTs.


https://carnegieendowment.org/files/Dec ... cision.pdf

Lockheed Martin responded to
this requirement by equipping the F-16
— until then, among the world’s most
wickedly agile air combat platforms —
with conformal fuel tanks (CFTs). These
CFTs, which can be removed between
missions but not jettisoned in flight,
extended the F-16’s already impressive
reach, but at the cost of robbing it of its
renowned sprightliness

The concerns about
handling and turn
rates, however, clearly
indicate something
important about the
IAF’s preferences in the
MMRCA competition,
while highlighting the
fact that the F-16IN
remains in some ways a
retrograde development
where close-in air
combat manoeuvring is
concerned

With its CFTs, the F-16IN’s handling
and sustained turn rates — which otherwise rank among the world’s best —
dropped to the bottom relative to the
other MMRCA competitors and thus
provided the final strike against its inclusion in the shortlist. The fact that the
CFT-equipped F-16IN would be less manoeuvrable compared to Pakistan’s F-16
Block 50/52s made the Super Viper’s exclusion from the MMRCA shortlist virtually a foregone conclusion
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loke

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Unread post16 Sep 2020, 18:07

gta4 wrote:
loke wrote:
gta4 wrote:Correction: F-16 block70 was not shortlisted because India required the F16 to carry CFTs to perform flight test.

Do you have a source for this claim? None of the two shortlisted MMCRA contenders carried CFTs.


https://carnegieendowment.org/files/Dec ... cision.pdf

Lockheed Martin responded to
this requirement by equipping the F-16
— until then, among the world’s most
wickedly agile air combat platforms —
with conformal fuel tanks (CFTs). These
CFTs, which can be removed between
missions but not jettisoned in flight,
extended the F-16’s already impressive
reach, but at the cost of robbing it of its
renowned sprightliness

The concerns about
handling and turn
rates, however, clearly
indicate something
important about the
IAF’s preferences in the
MMRCA competition,
while highlighting the
fact that the F-16IN
remains in some ways a
retrograde development
where close-in air
combat manoeuvring is
concerned

With its CFTs, the F-16IN’s handling
and sustained turn rates — which otherwise rank among the world’s best —
dropped to the bottom relative to the
other MMRCA competitors and thus
provided the final strike against its inclusion in the shortlist. The fact that the
CFT-equipped F-16IN would be less manoeuvrable compared to Pakistan’s F-16
Block 50/52s made the Super Viper’s exclusion from the MMRCA shortlist virtually a foregone conclusion


It says (omitted from your qoute):

the F16IN Super Viper that Lockheed Martin offered in the MMRCA competition
grew out of the F-16 Block 60 developed
for the United Arab Emirates (UAE). The
UAE partially funded its development in
order to acquire an aircraft capable of
carrying a useful ordnance load to the
extended distances necessary to target
Tehran. Lockheed Martin responded to
this requirement by equipping the F-16
— until then, among the world’s most
wickedly agile air combat platforms —
with conformal fuel tanks (CFTs).

So it seems UAE required the CFTs not India...? Anyway, perhaps CFT also was necessary for India to compensate for an otherwise too short range.

Having said that, I would take Tellis with a bucket of salt, he makes a lot of definite statements however I believe he does not really have the sources within IAF to back all of his claims. For instance he says:

The focus on agility, turn rates, thrust-to-weight ratios, handling, and in general, aerodynamic performance, provides clear indication that what the IAF
wanted most dearly in its MMRCA was a
‘super hot rod of the skies’ — an aircraft
that would excel in air combat manoeuvring because it possessed superior
speed, acceleration, and nimbleness.

If it was that simple, then the Typhoon would clearly have ranked highest of all six. However one of the IAF personnel involved in the MMRCA stated clearly during a recent interview that Rafale not Typhoon was the preferred option of the IAF.

Tellis has made many dubious statements.
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ricnunes

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Unread post21 Sep 2020, 23:35

IMO, both Rafale and Typhoon were shortlisted during the MMRCA competition because this same competition was 'geared toward' an European aircraft. Or resuming the preference when it comes to MMRCA was for an European aircraft.
Traditionally the Indian Air Force operates both Russian (Soviet in the past) and European (namely from French and British origin). Besides, when both the Rafale and Typhoon were shortlisted which happened in 2011 the relations between India and the USA weren't as close as they are today. On top of this India operated as it's top/best aircraft the Su-30MKI which as we all know is from Russian origin.
All of this leaves the European aircraft as the preferred choice since India never wanted to rely on a single supplier such as Russia which means that potentially the Rafale, Typhoon and perhaps the Gripen were seen as preferred choices. And being the Gripen is the 'weakest' of all three European contenders (actually more of a light fighter than a medium fighter as required by MMRCA) it was without surprise (IMO, that is) that the Rafale and Typhoon were shortlisted.

And if my memory isn't failing me the Rafale won because the French promised a better cost and much better industrial offsets (something that I believe we all know, didn't go as planned), this compared to the Eurofighter consortium.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post22 Sep 2020, 02:42

loke wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
loke wrote:
The future Greek Rafales maybe better than the Turkish F-16's. Yet, not markedly so.... :shock:

Incorrect; the future Greek Rafale will be significantly better than the Turkish F-16. Just look at how much better the Rafale scored compared to the Swiss Hornets, back in 2008; The Rafale has evolved quite significantly since then.

Another reference point is the Indian MMRCA; only Rafale and Typhoon made the cut, but of those two the IAF ranked Rafale higher than the Typhoon. The F-16 block 70 offered to India was much stronger than the Turkish F-16 but wasn't even shortlisted.

The Rafale has much better situational awareness, much better radar, and with Meteor, a missile with much larger NEZ. The EW capabilities is also much better. The Greek pilots are also very good. The Turkish F-16s will struggle. The major weak point of the Greek Rafale will be that they will be way too few.


As I said better yes significantly "NO".
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