F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

[gta4]

The future Greek Rafales maybe better than the Turkish F-16's. Yet, not markedly so....

Incorrect; the future Greek Rafale will be significantly better than the Turkish F-16. Just look at how much better the Rafale scored compared to the Swiss Hornets, back in 2008; The Rafale has evolved quite significantly since then.

Another reference point is the Indian MMRCA; only Rafale and Typhoon made the cut, but of those two the IAF ranked Rafale higher than the Typhoon. The F-16 block 70 offered to India was much stronger than the Turkish F-16 but wasn't even shortlisted.

The Rafale has much better situational awareness, much better radar, and with Meteor, a missile with much larger NEZ. The EW capabilities is also much better. The Greek pilots are also very good. The Turkish F-16s will struggle. The major weak point of the Greek Rafale will be that they will be way too few.

Correction: F-16 block70 was not shortlisted because India required the F16 to carry CFTs to perform flight test.

[hornetfinn]

Note a S-400 on the Bosphorus straight would cover alot of greece. Rafales would die after wheels up.

No they would not as the radar horizon would prevent S-400 from seeing them until they were getting higher than 10,000ft. For 400 km range those Rafales would need to get to ovet 30,000ft before being seen by S-400 radars. Of course the max effective range of any SAM system is not the effective range against small and agile fighter aircraft. It's usually about half of the max range unless target is completely surprised by the missile shot and I doubt that will happen with Rafale.

Sure S-400 (or any modern long range SAM system) is a serious threat to any 4th gen fighter, but it's not a Death Star or something like that. I'd say that if Turkey got their F-35s, then Rafale would be pretty much irrelevant. Against S-400, it has more options with cruise missiles and low level flight profiles. Rafale also has very good chances against current Turkish aircraft. Also Greece could use their ATACMS rockets against S-400s, so the Turkish would likely keep their S-400s a bit further away to avoid losing them.

[loke]

Correction: F-16 block70 was not shortlisted because India required the F16 to carry CFTs to perform flight test.

Do you have a source for this claim? None of the two shortlisted MMCRA contenders carried CFTs.

[Corsair1963]

With the US fast tracking the development of a 6th Generation Fighter. You would have to be crazy to even consider a 4th Generation Type........

[gta4]

Correction: F-16 block70 was not shortlisted because India required the F16 to carry CFTs to perform flight test.

Do you have a source for this claim? None of the two shortlisted MMCRA contenders carried CFTs.

https://carnegieendowment.org/files/Dec ... cision.pdf

Lockheed Martin responded to
this requirement by equipping the F-16
— until then, among the world’s most
wickedly agile air combat platforms —
with conformal fuel tanks (CFTs). These
CFTs, which can be removed between
missions but not jettisoned in flight,
extended the F-16’s already impressive
reach, but at the cost of robbing it of its
renowned sprightliness

The concerns about
handling and turn
rates, however, clearly
indicate something
important about the
IAF’s preferences in the
MMRCA competition,
while highlighting the
fact that the F-16IN
remains in some ways a
retrograde development
where close-in air
combat manoeuvring is
concerned

With its CFTs, the F-16IN’s handling
and sustained turn rates — which otherwise rank among the world’s best —
dropped to the bottom relative to the
other MMRCA competitors and thus
provided the final strike against its inclusion in the shortlist. The fact that the
CFT-equipped F-16IN would be less manoeuvrable compared to Pakistan’s F-16
Block 50/52s made the Super Viper’s exclusion from the MMRCA shortlist virtually a foregone conclusion

[loke]

Correction: F-16 block70 was not shortlisted because India required the F16 to carry CFTs to perform flight test.

Do you have a source for this claim? None of the two shortlisted MMCRA contenders carried CFTs.

https://carnegieendowment.org/files/Dec ... cision.pdf

Lockheed Martin responded to
this requirement by equipping the F-16
— until then, among the world’s most
wickedly agile air combat platforms —
with conformal fuel tanks (CFTs). These
CFTs, which can be removed between
missions but not jettisoned in flight,
extended the F-16’s already impressive
reach, but at the cost of robbing it of its
renowned sprightliness

The concerns about
handling and turn
rates, however, clearly
indicate something
important about the
IAF’s preferences in the
MMRCA competition,
while highlighting the
fact that the F-16IN
remains in some ways a
retrograde development
where close-in air
combat manoeuvring is
concerned

With its CFTs, the F-16IN’s handling
and sustained turn rates — which otherwise rank among the world’s best —
dropped to the bottom relative to the
other MMRCA competitors and thus
provided the final strike against its inclusion in the shortlist. The fact that the
CFT-equipped F-16IN would be less manoeuvrable compared to Pakistan’s F-16
Block 50/52s made the Super Viper’s exclusion from the MMRCA shortlist virtually a foregone conclusion

It says (omitted from your qoute):

the F16IN Super Viper that Lockheed Martin offered in the MMRCA competition
grew out of the F-16 Block 60 developed
for the United Arab Emirates (UAE). The
UAE partially funded its development in
order to acquire an aircraft capable of
carrying a useful ordnance load to the
extended distances necessary to target
Tehran. Lockheed Martin responded to
this requirement by equipping the F-16
— until then, among the world’s most
wickedly agile air combat platforms —
with conformal fuel tanks (CFTs).

So it seems UAE required the CFTs not India...? Anyway, perhaps CFT also was necessary for India to compensate for an otherwise too short range.

Having said that, I would take Tellis with a bucket of salt, he makes a lot of definite statements however I believe he does not really have the sources within IAF to back all of his claims. For instance he says:

The focus on agility, turn rates, thrust-to-weight ratios, handling, and in general, aerodynamic performance, provides clear indication that what the IAF
wanted most dearly in its MMRCA was a
‘super hot rod of the skies’ — an aircraft
that would excel in air combat manoeuvring because it possessed superior
speed, acceleration, and nimbleness.

If it was that simple, then the Typhoon would clearly have ranked highest of all six. However one of the IAF personnel involved in the MMRCA stated clearly during a recent interview that Rafale not Typhoon was the preferred option of the IAF.

Tellis has made many dubious statements.

[ricnunes]

IMO, both Rafale and Typhoon were shortlisted during the MMRCA competition because this same competition was 'geared toward' an European aircraft. Or resuming the preference when it comes to MMRCA was for an European aircraft.
Traditionally the Indian Air Force operates both Russian (Soviet in the past) and European (namely from French and British origin). Besides, when both the Rafale and Typhoon were shortlisted which happened in 2011 the relations between India and the USA weren't as close as they are today. On top of this India operated as it's top/best aircraft the Su-30MKI which as we all know is from Russian origin.
All of this leaves the European aircraft as the preferred choice since India never wanted to rely on a single supplier such as Russia which means that potentially the Rafale, Typhoon and perhaps the Gripen were seen as preferred choices. And being the Gripen is the 'weakest' of all three European contenders (actually more of a light fighter than a medium fighter as required by MMRCA) it was without surprise (IMO, that is) that the Rafale and Typhoon were shortlisted.

And if my memory isn't failing me the Rafale won because the French promised a better cost and much better industrial offsets (something that I believe we all know, didn't go as planned), this compared to the Eurofighter consortium.

[Corsair1963]

The future Greek Rafales maybe better than the Turkish F-16's. Yet, not markedly so....

Incorrect; the future Greek Rafale will be significantly better than the Turkish F-16. Just look at how much better the Rafale scored compared to the Swiss Hornets, back in 2008; The Rafale has evolved quite significantly since then.

Another reference point is the Indian MMRCA; only Rafale and Typhoon made the cut, but of those two the IAF ranked Rafale higher than the Typhoon. The F-16 block 70 offered to India was much stronger than the Turkish F-16 but wasn't even shortlisted.

The Rafale has much better situational awareness, much better radar, and with Meteor, a missile with much larger NEZ. The EW capabilities is also much better. The Greek pilots are also very good. The Turkish F-16s will struggle. The major weak point of the Greek Rafale will be that they will be way too few.

As I said better yes significantly "NO".

[herciv]

Next Atlantic TRIDENT will be organised in France with F-22, F-35, eurofighter and Rafale :
"
Organized in 2015 and 2017 in the United States, the next edition of the trilateral Atlantic Trident exercise will be held for the first time in France, more precisely at Mont-de-Marsan Air Force Base 118, between May 17 and 28. This was announced by the French Ministry of the Armed Forces on December 30, when the program of exercises in which French forces will participate was released.

In this document, it is recalled that the Atlantic Trident exercise, which involves only France, the United States and the United Kingdom, aims "to prepare to operate in coalition with the latest generation fighter aircraft in a contested air environment".

Also, F-35B and F-22A Raptors, whose presence in Europe is rather rare [and therefore rather exceptional], will be expected at Mont-de-Marsan. This will also be a first. These aircraft will be competing against the Rafales of the 30e Escadre de Chasse as well as the Eurofighter Typhoon of the Royal Air Force.

However, this will not be the first time that F-22A Raptors will be seen in French skies. In 2016, four such aircraft took part in a ceremony marking the 100th anniversary of the creation of the La Fayette squadron, along with 3 Mirage 2000Ns and a Rafale from 2/4 La Fayette fighter squadron.

Then, on 14-July 2017, to mark the centenary of the arrival of US troops in France during WWI, two F-22A aircraft flew over the Champs-Elysées with F-16s from the Thunderbirds Acrobatic Patrol.

Be that as it may, the Rafale has already operated alongside the F-22 in operations against Daesh in the Levant as part of the anti-Jihadist coalition led by the United States. In fact, it was in this theater that the American aircraft, which entered service in 2005, had its baptism of fire.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
"
http://www.opex360.com/2020/12/30/reuni ... iere-fois/

[optimist]

India was very much about TOT, not the 'best' platform.

[herciv]

[spazsinbad]

France begins backfilling its Rafale fleet after selling some to Greece
29 Jan 2021 Christina Mackenzie

"PARIS – The French Air and Space Force will be getting 12 new Rafales to replace those being removed from its inventory to sell to Greece, Defense Minister Florence Parly said on Friday....

...While no price tag was given during Parly’s announcement, Trappier has previously said one fully equipped fighter costs around 100 million euros, or $121 million, which would put the total package at just under $1.5 billion.

Parly said the 12 new aircraft would be built to the latest F3R standard. She added, “We sold 18 Rafales to Greece so it is indeed 18 Rafales that Dassault will have to produce.” Speaking at the factory, the defense minister said one Rafale would come off the production line per month...

...The French Air and Space Force will have its 12 new aircraft by the end of 2025. Together with the 28 Rafales that Dassault is to deliver between 2022 and 2024, this will bring the total to 129, as projected in the 2019-2025 military program law.""

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... to-greece/

[mixelflick]

I originally thought India would buy the SH, but now I'm not so sure. It turns out the Block III's CFT's might not be happening after all (assuming it was a key feature India wanted). Perhaps not, if what we just read about the "F-21's" CFT's is true..

It seems only the F-15's CFT's "stuck", and only then on the Strike Eagle. The rest of the world seems to see the wisdom in jettisoning EFT's (if need be), rather than suffer the drag penalties CFT's cause. I wonder if that'll continue...

"

[spazsinbad]

Special Report RAFALE & future updates AirForces Monthly Magazine 24 page PDF dated July 2017 No 352 below.

[spazsinbad]

Earlier a PDF was posted here: viewtopic.php?f=55&t=6094&p=426061&hilit=aviation+magazine#p426061
RAFALE M Tanker Taxies photo from same source.