F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

[spazsinbad]

How to 'WIN FRIENDS & INFLUENCE PEOPLE' by 'USN' - at least she is amused whilst the Frenchman behind - not so much.

https://www.dvidshub.net/image/4375734/ ... board-ghwb "ATLANTIC OCEAN, UNITED STATES 05.09.2018 Photo by Petty Officer 3rd Class Zachary Wickline USS George H.W. Bush (CVN 77) 180509-N-NG136-0008 ATLANTIC OCEAN (May 9, 2018) U.S. and French sailors line up on the flight deck for a foreign object debris (FOD) walk-down aboard the aircraft carrier USS George H.W. Bush (CVN 77). The ship is underway in the Atlantic Ocean conducting carrier air wing exercises with the French navy to strengthen partnerships and deepen interoperability between the two nations' naval forces. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Zachary P. Wickline)" https://www.dvidshub.net/download/image/4375734

[spazsinbad]

[spazsinbad]

EhOh (TeleTubbies).

HAL offers 40 more Sukhois at one-third of Rafale's cost
15 May 2018 Ajai Shukla

"The Indian Air Force is paying Rs 11.25 billion per Rafale, excluding the price of weapons and logistics

With the Sukhoi-30MKI fighter — the backbone of the air force fleet — nearing the end of its production run, its manufacturer, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), is taking up a case to build 40 more. If the defence ministry accepts HAL’s proposal, the inventory of the Russian fighter would be enhanced from the planned 272 to 312.

With HAL offering to price the additional Su-30s at just Rs 4.25 billion, the fighter will be barely one-third the cost of the Rafale. According to a Business Standard analysis, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is paying Rs 11.25 billion per Rafale, excluding the price of weapons and logistics.

HAL Chairman T Suvarna Raju said: “We will offer a very competitive price. Since 2010, we have been delivering the Su-30 at Rs 4.25 billion. We can deliver another three squadrons at that same price.” So, the IAF will pay Rs 170 billion for 40 additional Su-30s.

However, that would involve buying the fighters in ready-to-assemble kits from Russia and putting them together in Nashik. “HAL has already absorbed the technology for building and supporting the Su-30s. Now, the aim is to build those three new squadrons as quickly, and as cheaply, as possible,” said Raju....

...Ministry sources indicate a proposal to build more Su-30s would be considered positively, given the shortfall of IAF fighter squadrons. HAL is currently building the last 23 Su-30s of the 272 it was mandated to build. The IAF’s first 50 Su-30s were built in Russia.... [probably best read details at the source]

Source: http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 055_1.html

[popcorn]

At current exchange rates that's $165M for a Rafale vs. $63M for the Sukhoi.

[loke]

The french government raises its offer of "broader partnership" to Belgium for the renewal of its fighter jets, a market of 34 aircraft, estimated at this point to some 3.6 billion euros. A delegation of the office of Florence Parly, the French Minister of the armed forces, made clear, detailed, and amplified, Tuesday, May 15, its offer to the Belgian defence to replace its current American F-16.

The project stresses the need to take into account the development of the Europe of defence, within the framework of the future combat system, a Franco-German project placed under the leadership of Paris but which could be extended to the Belgium.

Auto-translated from:

http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/ ... saWLgq8.99

I am not sure if I understand this -- they are suggesting Belgium should buy Rafale and then join the development of the new French/German 5. gen fighter!?

AFAIK the new French/German fighter should be introduced around 2035 or so -- if this is correct, and if Belgium start introducing their new fighters around 2025, there is just a 10-year gap.

A more attractive deal would have been if France suggested leasing 34 Rafale to Belgium from 2025 to 2035, followed by introduction of the new 5. gen fighter from 2035 or so. France will in any case fly their Rafale for a long time to come.

[spazsinbad]

'They' say a night deck landing is TERRIFYING so I'm beginning to think they EXAGGERATE (but NO I know better).

CNO: U.S./French Integrated Air Wing Helping Develop ‘One Larger Team’ to Tackle Maritime Operations
15 May 2018 Megan Eckstein

"...The U.S. and French navies are no strangers to one another: they participate in naval exercises together, student aviators learn to fly together at U.S. Navy flight schools, and rising leaders learn together at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, Calif. – where Prazuck [Chief of Staff of the French Navy Adm. Christophe Prazuck] was once a student as well.

Still, the level of coordination between the two navies at the tactical level has never been as great as it is now, in a month-and-a-half-long exchange aboard Bush. After working out some differences in procedure and policy between the two navies, Cmdr. Patrick Baker, executive officer of Strike Fighter Squadron (VFA) 213, told reporters that his F/A-18F Super Hornet squadron had seen “almost seamless operations with the French Rafales and Hawkeyes onboard. … One of the things I’ve taken away from this is, if there ever is an opportunity or a situation that develops, the French do bring a unique, complementary capability to a U.S. carrier air wing that could definitely assist us in strengthening our regional and our maritime capability.”

“We have the same mission set, so the tactics may be slightly different, but as far as the overall mission it’s very similar,” he said. Most importantly, though, he said the two sets of crews were part of an exclusive brotherhood and sisterhood of naval aviators.

“Some things are the same, some things are different, and we all have the common experience of the terrifying night trap (landing) when the weather is bad, trying to find the boat, pitching deck – we all have that common experience we can share,” Baker said....

...Asked if there was a follow-on project for the U.S. and French navies to tackle to build on the interoperability they’re achieving during this exercise Chesapeake 2018, Richardson [Chief of Naval Operations Adm. John Richardson] said, “what I want to do actually is get out of the ‘project’ phase of our relationship and move into a more habitual interactive phase where it’s much more easy to stitch things together and we’re operating together kind of as a matter of habit. … Rather than these big events, we can think of high-end exercises as an event, but in between these continuing to work at sort of a lower level of activity, but still very meaningful.”"

Source: https://news.usni.org/2018/05/15/cno-u- ... operations

[spazsinbad]

[mixelflick]

At current exchange rates that's $165M for a Rafale vs. $63M for the Sukhoi.

Wow! Almost 3x's the $ for a Rafale?

I guess if India has ordered the Rafale, they're getting 3x's the capability of the SU-30MKI? Suppose it depends on how you define capability. I can see that though, especially if they're considering using it for ISR/air to ground...

[swiss]

At current exchange rates that's $165M for a Rafale vs. $63M for the Sukhoi.

Wow! Almost 3x's the $ for a Rafale?

I guess if India has ordered the Rafale, they're getting 3x's the capability of the SU-30MKI? Suppose it depends on how you define capability. I can see that though, especially if they're considering using it for ISR/air to ground...

Well the new F-15I would cost Israel roughly the same price.

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=54102

So it seems nothing spezial, for a top notch 4 gen Fighter.

[spazsinbad]

[spazsinbad]

USNI News Video: U.S. Navy, French Aviators Train for Middle East Deployments
03 Jun 2018 Ben Werner

"U.S. and French fighter pilots have spent nearly two months training alongside each other, exchanging tactics and comparing notes on what their Dassault Rafale and Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet jets can accomplish....

...“The Rafale is a rocket,” Lt. Brandon Rodgers from the Golden Warriors of Strike Fighter Squadron (VFA) 87 War Party said while speaking with the media aboard Bush.

In general, the Rafale and Super Hornet have about the same maneuverability, Rodgers said. While flying training missions and practicing engagements, Rodgers said the difference has really come down to which pilots know how to handle their aircraft best.

The Rafale is a lighter airframe but doesn’t carry the same type of armament as the Super Hornet. Still, when not fully loaded, Rodgers said the Rafale can pull some moves outside of the Super Hornet’s capabilities.

“When the Rafale is light, when nothing’s on it, it can pretty much stand on its tail and go straight up,” Rodgers said. “When you’re on the deck and watch them go straight up, you’re like, alright, I guess I can’t do that with you. It’s pretty cool.”"

Photo: https://news.usni.org/wp-content/upload ... 60x388.jpg (27Kb)

Source: https://news.usni.org/2018/06/03/rafale ... per-hornet

[Corsair1963]

Point is the Super Hornet and Rafale never go into combat clean....

[spazsinbad]

Six Page PDF of article attached.

Spirit of CHESAPEAKE
Aug 2018 Ivan Voukadinov

"A rare US-French joint training operation recently took place off the Virginia coast, the culmination of which resulted in French Navy fighters flying from the US Navy aircraft carrier USS George H. W. Bush. REPORT AND PHOTOS Ivan Voukadinov...

...The de Gaulle is undergoing a major refit, which began in February 2017. It is the flagship of the French fleet, with a gross displacement of up to 42,500 tons, and the only nuclear-powered carrier outside of those in service with the US Navy. Besides refueling the reactors, the overhaul will optimize and adapt the ship for operations solely with the Rafale, since the Dassault Super Étendard was retired in July 2016. The optical landing system, catapult equipment, electrics and landing signal officer (LSO) platform will also be upgraded. The work will be complete around July 2018 and the Charles de Gaulle should become available for active service in the fall....

...‘Our LSOs spent time in France ‘waving’ their pilots for a few days. Similarly, all the operations at Fentress [Naval Auxiliary Landing Field] have integrated their and our LSOs. We hosted a one-day summit at Oceana where everyone got together; all their pilots went through lectures talking about what differences they might see. This is more about seeing the results of the preparation than working out kinks on the fly.’

Fast-paced training
Once all the French aircraft arrived in Virginia, work-ups began immediately to get ready for carrier qualifications on board the Bush. Initially these were familiarization flights, flying from Virginia Beach to North Carolina and taking a look at the local ranges. There was heavy utilization of the nearby auxiliary landing field at Fentress, which has a carrier deck mock-up complete with a landing system and LSO platform that can be used for field carrier landing practice. This helped the French crews get used to landing on a ship again....

...On the carrier...
...CAPT Sean Bailey, the carrier’s commanding officer, talked about the expectations at the outset: ‘Now that we’re out here the first step is to get everyone carrier-qualified, which only takes about four days....

...‘Carrier qualification is the number-one priority behind safety....

...the first four days consisted of intense carrier operations, starting around noon and continuing for 12 hours. Each day more and more aircraft and pilots arrived on the ship from Oceana.

Flying operations during this period involved only pattern work, with aircraft launching and joining the landing pattern to practise arrested landings, or ‘traps’, on board the ship. Typically, pilots would conduct several ‘bounces’ in a row, touching down on the deck without lowering the arresting hook and going round again. Eventually, they would land, and the aircraft would then taxi and take off again directly from the bow catapults, which were used simultaneously. This is one of the key differences that the French crews noticed while on board. On the de Gaulle, it is impossible to conduct launches and recoveries simultaneously. Since the Bush is almost twice the size, this is a regular practice. In addition, the American carrier features slightly longer catapults, as well as a bigger deck that makes taxiing and maneuvering the aircraft easier.

...CDR Stephane, officer commanding the French E-2C Hawkeye squadron, gave an overview of the carrier qualifications element... ...‘The carrier qualification requirement is four day traps and four night traps per pilot. I have five pilots, of whom all will qualify by day and three by night.’ A total of 22 Rafale pilots were working to receive their carrier training, five of them transitioning from the Super Étendard. The CVW-8 squadrons also had pilots who needed to earn their carrier qualifications. Deck landing currency expires depending on how long it has been since the pilot last trapped. For example, VFA-87 had 12 pilots embarked, of whom eight were able to complete their qualification on the first day....

...Common purpose
Given that both the Charles de Gaulle and the Bush use the same catapult and landing system and identical hand signals, as well as flight deck vest colors, the lessons learned boiled down to the smaller things. In particular, this meant details relating to marshalling and taxiing aircraft on a bigger deck and taking into consideration the size difference between the Super Hornet and Rafale.

As far as safety is concerned, one of the key things that US flight deck personnel learned is how to deal with the French fighter’s jet exhaust. Trained to duck under the Super Hornet’s exhaust, which is horizontal, they had to deal with the Rafale’s exhaust, which is angled downwards due to the aircraft’s inherent ‘nose-up’ rest position. Pilots and the air boss, meanwhile, had to bear in mind the different speeds at which the Rafale flies in the landing pattern....

...Until the next time
The ‘Chesapeake’ deployment concluded with the French contingent having flown almost 500 sorties over the course of seven weeks...."

Source: Combat Aircraft Magazine August 2018 Vol.19 No.8

[madrat]

Does the Raf orbit faster or slower than Rhino?

[gta4]

Does the Raf orbit faster or slower than Rhino?

18E is faster due to pirouette maneuver.

The peak pitch rate acheived by 18E is 80deg/sec. I will post the test report later.