F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

[loke]

It's crazy that the USA is going to let another country operate on their carrier.

Why?

[spazsinbad]

'CROSS-DECKing' has been going on since the Vietnam War to my knowledge but I'm aware the Brits/US have been cross-decking earlier RN/USN carriers - plenty of photos online to illustrate the concept. Not many allies these days can cross deck so it may seem rare but hey the HARRIERS of the USMC / RN / RAF did it. The USMC even used the ski jump.

[botsing]

It's crazy that the USA is going to let another country operate on their carrier.

Cross-decking is a great way to share operational experience between allies, which in turn widens the operational capabilities of a joint force.

So please enlighten us: what inside information do you have that makes you so sure to call this crazy?

[steve2267]

The USMC even used the ski jump. :roll:

Say it isn't so! Heresy!

[spazsinbad]

RN Navy News 01 Sep 2007: https://issuu.com/navynews/docs/200709 USMC Harriers by gosh by gollee aboard LUSTY.

WORTH a visit: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... 147594.jpg

Pages 8 text & 16-17: https://issuu.com/navynews/docs/200709/8 & https://issuu.com/navynews/docs/200709/16

CHECK out this story: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=12631&p=155621&hilit=Illustrious+USMC#p155621

ALL the TEXT for story above: http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/archi ... 51439.html
OR
Easier to read online: http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showt ... -style-on-‘Lusty’

'quicksilver' found this video earlier: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DGgoeJKOZw

[steve2267]

Thanks for (re?)posting that video Spaz.

After watching it, and looking up some facts about the Invincible-class, I can't help but think they were the perfect light aircraft carrier. With 18-20 Lightnings, a couple helos, and an Osprey or two, such a ship would make a formidable strike weapon in its own right, but if you lost a ship, you wouldn't lose all your eggs in that basket (assuming you had several ships, that is.)

Dumb question, why doesn't the USN roll-control their gators? A stable platform in roll must shirley have bonuses other than merely landing aircraft?

[spazsinbad]

I think you have 'over egged' the number of F-35B capacity of a CVS. It is just TOO SMALL - even for SHARS - main complaint when designing the CVFs when asked the SHAR people said 'make it BIGGA!' CVS was first a helo carrier for ASW in the North Atlantic but was then DRAGOONED into being SHAR capable with typical British ingenuity. <sigh>

We've (if not you) have had the conversation before about 'F-35Bs on CVS'. That idea was put to rest very early on so the F-35B WAS NOT designed to be accommodated by a CVS but only for the flat decks now in service. This is explained in the so tedious to restate my oft quoted 2002 F-35B designer: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a399988.pdf (1Mb)
The Influence of Ship Configuration on the Design of the Joint Strike Fighter Mr. Eric S. Ryberg 2002

I'll quote from it and then attach a TEXT version of the original PDF which is amenable to copy/paste for future use.

"...UK OPERATIONAL NEEDS
The UK requires a Future Joint Combat Aircraft (FJCA) that will be a stealthy, multi-role aircraft to follow on from the Sea Harrier FA2, Harrier GR7, and Harrier T10 operated by the Royal Navy (RN) and Royal Air Force (RAF). The aircraft must be capable of sustained air interdiction, close air support, offensive and defensive counter air, suppression of enemy air defenses, combat search and rescue, reconnaissance, and anti-surface warfare missions. While the STOVL JSF is to be evaluated for basic compatibility with INVINCIBLE-class (CVS) carriers, it is unlikely that the aircraft will ever be deployed aboard CVS [not even around today - scrapped quite a few years back now] for any extended periods. Instead, the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) has initiated development of a future aircraft carrier (CVF) scheduled to enter service at or about the same time as its JSF. The CVF program is currently in its concept development phase, and the ship will be designed for compatibility with the shipboard JSF variant, CV or STOVL, that will be procured for use by the UK’s joint air forces. The UK’s selection of JSF variant is scheduled to occur during the first half of 2002...."

[steve2267]

Furnuff...

I'll go have a looksee at that paper. Not sure I've seen it before, so thanks for that.

Yeah, I dunno if Lusty & Co could fit the Bee in the hive, err hanger -- dimensions just might not fit. And 12-16 may be a better number. The Italians seem to think they can get 16 Bees on the Cavour, which still makes for a helluva strike capacity. And the Italians seem to have gotten it right... the Cavour at least attempts to imply the graceful lines of a ship'owar... not like that floating box, the Juan Carlos I. But I guess that' smoref a floating parking lot, so...

I haven't run any trade studies, so this is mere speculation / opinion on my part, but I still think there is merit in spreading a Killer Bee force across multiple platforms. I believe it was the Swedes who demonstrated the ability (hence the danger) of AIP subs, when the Gotland "sank" the USS Ronald Reagan in JTFEX 06-2 in 2006. With multiple (albeit smaller) platforms, one would compound the enema's targeting problem rather severely, wouldn't one?

Yeah, I get the economies of scale of the new QE and PoW... just hope they never get sunk.

[spazsinbad]

I think you just don't get it. The CVS is TOO SMALL - the deck is ridiculously small for the F-35B whether it can fit on a lift or in the hangar becomes irrelevant. Yes the F-35B can/will operate from flat decks smaller than the LHA/CVF but these were designed (not with all the info available today but as best as could be calculated back then when carriers built).

Around the traps there are graphic comparisons of the relative size of these flat decks. CVS is just plain too small.

This graphic is no longer at URL but probably could be found elsewhere here or on internet: http://www.aircraftcarrieralliance.co.u ... rosyth.jpg

Another CVF/CVS comparo: http://i1.wp.com/www.savetheroyalnavy.o ... VF-LPH.jpg

The full length of CVF is required for a MTOW - a CVS immediately decreases the max load for any given conditions for starters. Despite what is stated by USMC pilots CVS VL at night was difficult because it DID ROLL despite the gizmos.

[steve2267]

Furrgive me if I'm being particularly dense, or not typing clearly , but I am not arguing that the Invincible-class, per se, should have been kept around for the Bee, as the elevators appear to be too small (32' width?), and the hangar deck potentially too narrow (39' vs wingspan of 35'). (ETA: ok, a bit short for MTOW as pointed out by Spaz above.)

Even though the flight deck is only listed as 50' wide, I suspect the F-35B could operate from that given the excellent roll stabilization exhibited by Vince et al.

I am arguing that 12-16 or 16-20 Killer Bees make a very capable strike force and that a carrier in the 25,000 ton range capable of 30kts would make a very capable light-carrier. But this is probably the wrong thread for such musinations. I posit that a (new?) class (?) of ship in the 25,000 ton range could be had with a flight deck wide enough, a hangar deck large enough, elevators big enough, and a ramp at the pointy end to make a viable light carrier. Cavour would seem to be one such ship, even though it is not optimized for F-35B only ops, having a parking garage below decks for all manner of trucks and such. (ETA: Juan Carlos I, despite the boxcar look, gets the job done as well.)

[spazsinbad]

OVer on page 145 this thread are posts about CHESAPEAKE so here sumoar. Via E-mail so that's all she/he rote!

[spazsinbad]

MoAr pics here: http://alert5.com/2018/05/14/french-nav ... more-68852

"180510-N-NG136-0461 ATLANTIC OCEAN (May 10, 2018) A Rafale Marine attached to squadron 17F of the French navy prepares to land on the flight deck of the aircraft carrier USS George H.W. Bush (CVN 77). The Ship is underway in the Atlantic Ocean conducting carrier air wing exercises with the French navy to strengthen partnerships and deepen interoperability between the two nations’ naval forces. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Zachary P. Wickline)" http://alert5.com/wp-content/uploads/20 ... 378478.jpg

"180511-N-JU894-0027 ATLANTIC OCEAN (May 11, 2018) A Rafale Marine attached to squadron 17F of the French navy lands during flight operations on the flight deck aboard the aircraft carrier USS George H.W. Bush (CVN 77). The ship is underway in the Atlantic Ocean conducting carrier air wing exercises with the French navy to strengthen partnerships and deepen interoperability between the two nations’ naval forces. (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Brooke Macchietto)" http://alert5.com/wp-content/uploads/20 ... 381258.jpg

[spazsinbad]

[mixelflick]

This is fantastic,

Now that we've gone to an all Hornet Navy, we can spread Hornets to other Navy's too! Can't you see it now? Super Hornets operating from the Admiral Kuznetsov, Charles DeuGalle, the Chinese Liainong, Queen Elizabeth II etc !!

It's never going out of service. Ultimately, it'll outlast the B-52 and still be around when only cockroaches remain...

[spazsinbad]

A 3-wire GOTCHA! MOAR PICS: https://www.dvidshub.net/search?q=rafale&view=grid

U.S./French Integrated Air Wing Exercise Accelerates French Pilots’ Return to Sea
15 May 2018 Ben Werner & Megan Eckstein

"...Dubbed exercise Chesapeake 2018, about 350 French aircraft maintainers, flight deck crew members, and Dassault Rafale M fighter and Northrop Grumman E-2C Hawkeye pilots are spending about a fortnight aboard George H.W. Bush, preparing for when France’s aircraft carrier FS Charles de Gaulle (R91) is ready to return to service this summer, French Navy officials said....

...Rafale fighters sit on deck at a slight angle, causing their engines to point down toward the deck. This created potential hazard for U.S. personnel working on the flight deck, said Cmdr. Marc. U.S. crews are used to being able to simply duck under the exhaust nozzles when F/A-18F Super Hornets and EA-18G Growlers are maneuvered around the deck because these jets sit flat on the flight deck and their engines point straight back.

Some other differences between the Rafale and the Super Hornet have led to a slightly different pace of movement on the flight deck during aircraft launches, Lt. Cmdr. Winston Cotterell, Bush‘s aircraft handling officer, told reporters.

First, he said, the French aircrew tend to want to do all maintenance in the hangar bay instead of up on the flight deck, where U.S. crews conduct some smaller maintenance activities.

“I’ve run a lot of elevators just for those aircraft,” Cotterell joked, but said that ultimately the French have similar maintenance procedures and prioritize maintenance and readiness of the aircraft, even if they prefer to conduct the work inside the ship.

Additionally, Cotterell said, the flight deck crews have to exchange the spreaders – the clip inside the catapult system that connects to the aircraft – between launching the Rafales and the Super Hornets or Growlers.

“The Rafale takes a different type of spreader that needs to go on our catapults to make them launch off the bow. The (U.S. and French) E-2s are the same, so that’s pretty much seamless, but the Rafales take a little bit of time … maybe a few minutes, a minute or two here and there,” the handler said. After a few days of integrated air wing operations at sea, he said the deck crew has been able to swap the spreaders in about a minute during the daytime, though at night in the extreme dark it takes several minutes to ensure personnel are safe and to ensure the spreaders are clipped in tightly enough to securely launch the next aircraft.

Between having to swap the spreaders and some French procedures, such as not allowing hot aircraft to be towed on the flight deck, Cotterell said it takes a few more minutes to conduct a full launch cycle, but he said he and his crew are learning a lot and enjoying the experience of working with their French counterparts...."

Photo: “French Navy Dassault Rafale M fighter lands on USS George H.W. Bush (CVN-77) USNI Photo” https://news.usni.org/wp-content/upload ... G_2557.jpg

Source: https://news.usni.org/2018/05/15/33590