F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

[monkeypilot]

https://www.ilfoglio.it/esteri/2018/02/23/news/pesco-francia-belgio-rafale-180436/

For those who want to bother with googled translate.

Anyway tl;dr:

France is scamming its way in the Belgium tender by promising industrial deals that have nothing to do with the country defense industry (known issue )

Apparently Macron and ms. Merkel, which are already considered treacherous scums already, decided it's honest to steal public EU investment funds to fuel their 5th gen.

Because of fragmentation in military projects (guess what, caused by germany and france mostly) the EU is loosing fron 25 to 100 BILLIONS of euro (depending on the year).



Long live europa!

Il Foglio... Frankly... why not a Murdoch's diary? (or anyother tabloid) Any serious source?

example

You saw what happens with the missile SCALP which is manufactured by MBDA, which is European, and yet we can not sell it to India because it has an American chip

This is Egypt, not india...Seriously...

[nutshell]

Ok you showed me you can read an url but, il foglio it's a serious enough newspaper and has irrelevant political connections

Besides it's an intervire with Professor Alegi from the Luiss university and he does a quick and good job explaining what's wrong with the EU (military wise).

By paraphrasing Lavarr Ball " STAY IN YO LANE"

Edit:
Did really quote a piece of a post made by wil59 which is a french troll thinking it was a piece of the article!?

[ricnunes]

Yes can be. But even when probe and sticky have an RCS one order of magnitude higher then the golf ball (0.001m2), it doesn't matter for a non stealthy plane.

Yes, in overall I agree. I guess that the refueling probe is just one more (small I admit) indication/evidence that the Rafale RCS isn't as low as sometimes claimed.

Cant believe we talking several pages bout the RCS of a refueling probe.

Well, we can always revert to other subjects such as the number of T-R modules in AESA radars

[Corsair1963]

I don't think j31 is a serious project. More like a consolation project to keep Shenyang on the 5th gen learning curve.

Anyways, getting off topic.

As for Rafale vs J20, I think any advantages for Rafale could prove wishful thinking.

I disagree with the former and agree with the latter. First, I don't see how anyone could believe the J-31 is not a serious project. As it just went through a major re-design. In addition China will need vast numbers of Medium Sized Strike Fighters to support it's Army and Navy. Plus, something that could offer some export prospects. That clearly isn't the J-20. Which, of course leads us back to the J-31.

As a matter of fact I'll stick my neck out. Stating that I believe the J-31 will be the "backbone" of the PLAAF (and PLAN) for the foreseeable future. Just as the F-35 will be for the West....

As for the Rafale vs J-20. The former will always have the RCS of a barn while carrying external stores. So, I don't see how the Rafale or any other 4.5 Generation Fighter is going to match it???

Honestly, the photos of the most recent J-31 are impressive indeed. In the overall shaping and the quality of the fit and finish.....(Russia are you listening?)

OLD vs NEW

J31Z.png (219.48 KiB) Viewed 83902 times

J31A.png (59.69 KiB) Viewed 83902 times

J31C.jpg (3.25 KiB) Viewed 83902 times

[gideonic]

I disagree with the former and agree with the latter. First, I don't see how anyone could believe the J-31 is not a serious project.

1. Because it's referenced as Shenyang FC-31 (not J-31), meaning it's designed by the company, without state funding?
The PLAAF hasn't been interested in it yet and the PLANAF still want's a competition before it decides on anything.

2. Because there have been only 2 prototypes in 6 years. The first one needed afterburner to turn and the latter is only now doing any serious flight testing? Actually scratch that, was doing it in July and September of 2017, but no news since then.

I do agree that China probably wants/needs a medium single-engined fighter, but I don't think they are in any rush to choose the J-31. They still an engine for it first, and the WS-13 doesn't seem quite ready yet.

IMO with the operational knowledge from the J-20 they can do significantly better in a few years.

[Corsair1963]

1. Because it's referenced as Shenyang FC-31 (not J-31), meaning it's designed by the company, without state funding?
The PLAAF hasn't been interested in it yet and the PLANAF still want's a competition before it decides on anything.

The J-31 (FC-31) is indeed being funded by the Chinese Government. Besides there is no other viable option at this late date.

2. Because there have been only 2 prototypes in 6 years. The first one needed afterburner to turn and the latter is only now doing any serious flight testing? Actually scratch that, was doing it in July and September of 2017, but no news since then.

The J-31 has been totally re-designed and development is continuing at a good pace. Just because you haven't heard anything. Hardly, means the project is in trouble or having problems. (not like China is an open society)

I do agree that China probably wants/needs a medium single-engined fighter, but I don't think they are in any rush to choose the J-31. They still an engine for it first, and the WS-13 doesn't seem quite ready yet.

LOL Really, you think China isn't in a rush??? What is China going to use to counter the hundreds if not thousand of F-35's the US and her Allies are going to produce in the coming year. (US already has over 450 Stealth Fighters) Plus, that doesn't count 5th Generation Fighters from other countries like South Korea and the KF-X. (for example)

As for the WS-13 China can easily source the RD-93 from Russia if need be....

IMO with the operational knowledge from the J-20 they can do significantly better in a few years.

The J-20 will likely be adequate in the number of roles. Yet, it clearly isn't going to be the workhorse of the PLAAF. Plus, what about the Brand New Chinese Aircraft Carriers or the Export Market??? You think the J-20 is going to be a big seller there....

[gideonic]

The J-20 will likely be adequate in the number of roles. Yet, it clearly isn't going to be the workhorse of the PLAAF. Plus, what about the Brand New Chinese Aircraft Carriers or the Export Market??? You think the J-20 is going to be a big seller there....

No I think China will have a new competition and a new fighter for that. One of the runner-ups might be the FC-31, but I hope a better plane will win (and yes, it won't be the J-20 in any current form).

[gta4]

Well, FC-31 and J-20 have made multiple flight demonstrations at airshows and I have to say, they are very sluggish by fighter jets' standard.

FC-31 wont get TVC in the future. If J-20 gets TVC, its nose pointing may be close to that of F-35, but for subsonic acceleration there is still no contest.

[monkeypilot]

that's of use only to Germany and France.

Pure assumption.

[swiss]

Yes can be. But even when probe and sticky have an RCS one order of magnitude higher then the golf ball (0.001m2), it doesn't matter for a non stealthy plane.

Yes, in overall I agree. I guess that the refueling probe is just one more (small I admit) indication/evidence that the Rafale RCS isn't as low as sometimes claimed.

Difficult to say. We had the discussion already here. SH, EF, and Rafale should have roughly the same Level of RCS. Probably with a slight edge for the SH. And its several times mentioned, also here on F-16.net, that the SH has a RCS of 0.1 m2.


True ore not, we don't know exactly.

Well, we can always revert to other subjects such as the number of T-R modules in AESA radars

Well thats easier, You can count the damn modules on Pictures. But its also only one part of the whole picture.

[Corsair1963]

The J-20 will likely be adequate in the number of roles. Yet, it clearly isn't going to be the workhorse of the PLAAF. Plus, what about the Brand New Chinese Aircraft Carriers or the Export Market??? You think the J-20 is going to be a big seller there....

No I think China will have a new competition and a new fighter for that. One of the runner-ups might be the FC-31, but I hope a better plane will win (and yes, it won't be the J-20 in any current form).

A totally new fighter would take 20 years to design, develop, and field. So, I guess you believe a modest number of J-20's will do...........

[Corsair1963]

Well, FC-31 and J-20 have made multiple flight demonstrations at airshows and I have to say, they are very sluggish by fighter jets' standard.

FC-31 wont get TVC in the future. If J-20 gets TVC, its nose pointing may be close to that of F-35, but for subsonic acceleration there is still no contest.

Absurd you can't judge the true performance of a fighter by a single flight demonstration. Clearly, to even suggest such a thing spells out your lack of knowledge on the subject. As for TVC it hardly matters if the J-31 will incorporate it in the future or not. As we are far more concern with it's level of Stealth (RCS) and Sensor Fusion (Situational Awareness).

[rheonomic]

Weight penalty of TVC would probably offset the benefits.

[weasel1962]

A flypast at an airshow isn't really going to demo the full capabilities of an aircraft. 60+k lb thrust at roughly F-15 weights, it suggests its going to be about as "sluggish" as an F-15. We all know how "crappy" the F-15 is.

I'm not sure that the TVC will impose that great a penalty considering the increased thrust of the new engine x 2.

[Corsair1963]

Most of the fighters currently in development don't incorporate TVC. Which, speaks volumes....