F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

[ricnunes]

All I remember is that I was shocked on just how bad the US fighters performed (F-14D took a VERY bad beating, F-18C faired somewhat better, but Rafale M was superior).

If we look at the F-14D which is an improved version of the F-14A which entered in service in 1974, the F/A-18C which is an improved version of the F/A-18A which entered in service in 1983 and finally the Rafale M which entered in service in 2001 - a 18 year difference from the F/A-18 and a 27 year difference from the F-14, I would say that if the Rafale wasn't superior that would be the real shock.

The fact that while the Rafale being apparently superior to the F/A-18C (in BFM) but both aircraft can still be compared/comparable (the Rafale having a hard time to overcome the F/A-18C) despite coming into service almost 20 years later doesn't give a good "testimony" to the European fighter aircraft industry.

[monkeypilot]

in the face of the F-18, the task is more complicated but thanks to the flight controls, the weight / thrust ratio and its low wing load, it quickly shows its superiority

%I wouldn't call that a "hard time"... However, the complete article wold be a great add and certainly more precise.

[ricnunes]

in the face of the F-18, the task is more complicated but thanks to the flight controls, the weight / thrust ratio and its low wing load, it quickly shows its superiority

%I wouldn't call that a "hard time"... However, the complete article wold be a great add and certainly more precise.

Well, one just need to look at the F/A-18C specs and compare it with the Rafale specs to reach the conclusion that trying to defeat a F/A-18C while flying a Rafale isn't a easy task.
I don't doubt that the Rafale may be somewhat superior to the F/A-18C but the difference isn't that big! For example, while the Rafale has a higher Thrust-to-Weight Ratio the F/A-18 also has advantages of its own, namely it's capable to attain higher AoA maneuvers compared to the Rafale.
So the task of a Rafale defeating a Hornet is definitely NOT an easy one, that's for sure and I could even bet my left testicle on this

By the way, there are also photos and video footages showing the Hornet having a upper hand against the Rafale in a BFM, aren't they?
And even by reading the Rafale pilot comment (which you quoted) and while he is obviously praising his mount (afterall, that's a thing which most pilots trend to do), he says "the task is more complicated" which IMO clearly means hard.

[F-16ADF]

I earlier posted a video with F-18C HUD gun kills on a Rafale (C version, I believe).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... 3b-b762QRY

My point is that in the low speed realm the Hornet remains competitive (if not superior in many instances). Higher speeds, probably a different story. Within that realm the French jet just seems it has the advantage.


I think I do remember the original article stating that the C model Hornet was a tough(er) opponent (it was nearly 16 years ago); yet it seemed that the Rafale still scored the majority of kills.

It was the Tomcat that took the far greater beating. And prior reading books about how great the "GE motors" were suppose to make it (as F-14 pilots were saying "we can now fly the air-frame and not the engines"). I was just rather stunned.


The funny thing is the Rafale M has an even lower T/W ratio than the Rafale C.

[mas]

I suspect if the Rafale matched or exceeded the F-14D's turn rate at low speed which was its specialty and SEP generally then it would be up to the pilot to make up the performance difference. Usually when one fighter regularly beats another it's because its usual advantage has been taken away e.g. the F-15/F-16 could turn faster at high subsonic than the Mig-21 could at its peak low subsonic which meant the latter ended up as toast when meeting any teen fighter and became obsolete overnight.

[steve2267]

Does anyone have any (credible) E-M diagrams for Rafale? Esp. @ 15k ft?

[tailgate]

I don't know about other drivers on this board....but the F-14 was not an ACM platform. I've flown against them in 15A/C's and 16 40/50's and the 14 simply was outperformed by both. I can say this with a little pride and ego...I have never lost to a Tomcat in ACM/BFM. It simply was outmatched by either airframe. What it could do was "kill" you from a long way off.

The Hornet is a much more difficult foe and unfortunately I cannot stake the same claim as above....lol

I have flown against Typhoons and Rafale's in Red Flags(F-22). I am confident to say that both those airframes would have had no issues dealing with Tomcats. There is a reason they were retired.

[mas]

How did the Rafale/Typhoon compare against the F-22 and against each other ?

[monkeypilot]

Does anyone have any (credible) E-M diagrams for Rafale? Esp. @ 15k ft?

They are claissified

[XanderCrews]

All I remember is that I was shocked on just how bad the US fighters performed (F-14D took a VERY bad beating, F-18C faired somewhat better, but Rafale M was superior).

If we look at the F-14D which is an improved version of the F-14A which entered in service in 1974, the F/A-18C which is an improved version of the F/A-18A which entered in service in 1983 and finally the Rafale M which entered in service in 2001 - a 18 year difference from the F/A-18 and a 27 year difference from the F-14, I would say that if the Rafale wasn't superior that would be the real shock.

The fact that while the Rafale being apparently superior to the F/A-18C (in BFM) but both aircraft can still be compared/comparable (the Rafale having a hard time to overcome the F/A-18C) despite coming into service almost 20 years later doesn't give a good "testimony" to the European fighter aircraft industry.

The dirty little "secret" of the airplane nerd world is that the Tomcat was not a good dog fighter. And i say that as a Tomcat fan

However I would also point out that the Rafale was the newest thing on the block and the first of the Eurocanards out there. Im guessing how to fight it was still an unknown. In that regard i would cut the navy some slack

[XanderCrews]

I don't know about other drivers on this board....but the F-14 was not an ACM platform. I've flown against them in 15A/C's and 16 40/50's and the 14 simply was outperformed by both. I can say this with a little pride and ego...I have never lost to a Tomcat in ACM/BFM. It simply was outmatched by either airframe. What it could do was "kill" you from a long way off.
.

^This^

Again maybe some ego involved but one air force pilot I know said he loved Tomcats because they were "tennis court" sized that made gunnery easy compared to others.

[tailgate]

How did the Rafale/Typhoon compare against the F-22 and against each other ?

Realizing that these aircraft were designed for different roles is key here. The Typhoon and Rafale were developed from the onset as Multi-role acft. Europe does this out of necessity because they can't field large forces of single aspect aircraft, bang from your buck so to speak. The F-22 was designed as an air superiority fighter, much like the F-15, and gained the A/G role only later on in life.
Both the F-22 and F-15 thrive in the A/A enviro. It's what they do. The F-15 is undefeated ( until someone provides evidence against speculated claims) and is still feared around the globe. I never feared anything while flying the F-22. Without getting into very specific, the Typhoon and Rafale are outclassed by the 22. One Red Flag i participated in, at the end of the exercise our score was 108 to 0. Against everything. That says a lot, because in Flag, it's about as real as it gets without actually shooting anybody.....lol.
That is not to say any one aircraft can't down another, Murphy's law.......I can tell you this......and it comes from flying the 22 and flying against it. You can't target what you can't see much less kill it, and by the time I did, I was already dead.....just saying.
I honestly don't know how they fair against each other. But looking at them I would say they are evenly matched if you are a stats guy. I think this is where the pilot comes into play more than anything

[F-16ADF]

Tailgate,

I think what's great about the F-22 is it's the total package. It has great low speed maneuvering and great high speed maneuvering. Usually with prior jets its was one or the other. It truly is the 800lb gorilla.



I think with a Rafale vs Eurofighter: the Typhoon pilot would want to keep the fight at higher speed (avoid the Rafale's better nose pointing/AOA capability). And use the Typhoon's massive power (acceleration) and either use the vertical or keep it above 400knots in the horizontal. While maybe the Rafale pilot would want to squeeze the Eurofighter down to 300knots and lower, and gun him with superior high alpha capabilities?

But it sure seems (pilot skill aside) they are nearly evenly matched. One seems better at lower speeds, the other has the advantage at higher speeds.

[ricnunes]

The dirty little "secret" of the airplane nerd world is that the Tomcat was not a good dog fighter. And i say that as a Tomcat fan

Absolutely!
The Tomcat was designed as a pure interceptor. Its main focus was shooting down enemy aircraft, mainly bomber-class at long ranges with the AWG-9/AIM-54 combo.
I remember to have read somewhere that the Tomcat was more agile than it was initially anticipated but of course this doesn't mean that it had the same/similar agility as a F-15 for example. The "better than anticipated agility" was compared with other pure interceptors.
I believe that this together with a well known movie in the 1980's gave the impression to many Tomcat fans (and not only) that the Tomcat was more agile than it really was.

By the way, another F-14 Tomcat fan here as well

However I would also point out that the Rafale was the newest thing on the block and the first of the Eurocanards out there. Im guessing how to fight it was still an unknown. In that regard i would cut the navy some slack

Yes, I fully agree!
When this "mock combat" occurred the Rafale entered in service recently while the F/A-18 has been in service since 20 years ago or so which means that the Rafale pilots likely knew much better how the F/A-18 behaved and how to better engage it compared to the same knowledge that US Navy F/A-18 pilot had about the Rafale.

[mas]

How did the Rafale/Typhoon compare against the F-22 and against each other ?

Realizing that these aircraft were designed for different roles is key here. The Typhoon and Rafale were developed from the onset as Multi-role acft. Europe does this out of necessity because they can't field large forces of single aspect aircraft, bang from your buck so to speak. The F-22 was designed as an air superiority fighter, much like the F-15, and gained the A/G role only later on in life.
Both the F-22 and F-15 thrive in the A/A enviro. It's what they do. The F-15 is undefeated ( until someone provides evidence against speculated claims) and is still feared around the globe. I never feared anything while flying the F-22. Without getting into very specific, the Typhoon and Rafale are outclassed by the 22. One Red Flag i participated in, at the end of the exercise our score was 108 to 0. Against everything. That says a lot, because in Flag, it's about as real as it gets without actually shooting anybody.....lol.
That is not to say any one aircraft can't down another, Murphy's law.......I can tell you this......and it comes from flying the 22 and flying against it. You can't target what you can't see much less kill it, and by the time I did, I was already dead.....just saying.
I honestly don't know how they fair against each other. But looking at them I would say they are evenly matched if you are a stats guy. I think this is where the pilot comes into play more than anything

What fighter gave you the most trouble in a visual mock dogfight and did you ever do any DACT against any Russian fighters ? I take your point about the F-22 which I also agree is the best combat aircraft ever built. At any angle you look at it it just looks so stealthy so getting radar/missile locks on it at any angle must be tough. Opponents are probably down to options like IRST/IR missiles and guns ... If they have lived that long .