F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post08 Jan 2018, 01:08

This quote from a former F-22 pilot ["...Col Christopher Niemi is the commander of the 33rd Operations Group. A seasoned F-15E and F-22 pilot..."] keeps 'dogfight' discussions in perspective I hope - trained for but not likely - in the real world.
LIGHTNING PROGRESS
2016 Jamie Hunter USAF Yearbook CAM

"...‘When you look at the macro trend over the past 40 years, the number of dogfights involving post-merge maneuvering has greatly diminished. Even in the F-22, which is a tremendous dogfighter, the great majority of engagements in an LFE [large-force exercise] like ‘Red Flag’ weren’t decided after an F-22 turned for 720 degrees and finally beat an inferior-turning airplane. They were decided two miles from the merge where the guy didn’t even know the F-22 was there and he shot him in the lips! I’m very comfortable with the F-35’s capabilities for air-to-air combat. I think we’re going to continue to see the macro trends point towards less post-merge maneuvering and towards the importance of stealth, so they don’t know you’re there, and the importance of highly maneuverable missiles like the AIM-9X.

‘It’s fun and useful to train a fighter pilot to maneuver their jet from a neutral merge so they can gun-track an adversary, but the utility of that, even in an F-15 or F-16, is being steadily undermined by advances in missiles. The last thing you want to do is anchor with an adversary in air-to-air combat, because it makes you vulnerable to getting popped by his wingman or someone else that’s stumbled across your furball.’"

Source: Combat Aircraft Monthly USAF Air Power Yearbook 2016 [download 3 page PDF at link]
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=28364&p=308915&hilit=Hunter+Jamie#p308915

PDF: F-35 USAFAPY2016 pp10.pdf (2Mb) download/file.php?id=22109

Then there is the experienced RAAF fighter pilot commenting on 'seeing the F-22 but not able to lock on' frustration....
Raptors wield 'unfair' advantage at Red Flag
21 Feb 2007 Tech. Sgt. Russell Wicke; Air Combat Command Public Affairs - NELLIS AIR FORCE BASE, Nev.

"..."...Invisibility - even with eyes on
When the Raptor finds itself in a dogfight, it is no longer beyond visual range, but the advantage of stealth isn't diminished. It maintains "high ground" even at close range.

"I can't see the [expletive deleted] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me."

Lt. Col. Larry Bruce, 65th AS commander, admits flying against the Raptor is a very frustrating experience. Reluctantly, he admitted "it's humbling to fly against the F-22," - humbling, not only because of its stealth,..."

Source: http://www.acc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123041831 [NOT FOUND] So Go HERE: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=24886&p=264384&hilit=Wicke#p264384

TWO Page 2Mb PDF of the USAF article now attached below.
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Last edited by spazsinbad on 08 Jan 2018, 01:38, edited 5 times in total.
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Unread post08 Jan 2018, 01:20

f-16adf wrote:Tailgate,

I think what's great about the F-22 is it's the total package. It has great low speed maneuvering and great high speed maneuvering. Usually with prior jets its was one or the other. It truly is the 800lb gorilla

I think with a Rafale vs Eurofighter: the Typhoon pilot would want to keep the fight at higher speed (avoid the Rafale's better nose pointing/AOA capability). And use the Typhoon's massive power (acceleration) and either use the vertical or keep it above 400knots in the horizontal. While maybe the Rafale pilot would want to squeeze the Eurofighter down to 300knots and lower, and gun him with superior high alpha capabilities?

But it sure seems (pilot skill aside) they are nearly evenly matched. One seems better at lower speeds, the other has the advantage at higher speeds.


I think the Rafale turns better at lower speed too especially ITR. The Typhoon is a beast above 400 knots, above 440 knots if afterburner is selected in parts of the 9g envelope speed increases and turn rate diminishes which is incredible SEP.

viewtopic.php?p=384429#p384429

Moreover, pylon configuration and external fuel stores are of no consequence in the BFM arena for the Typhoon; you don’t even notice it. Selecting maximum afterburner in the Typhoon is rather disturbing for the first time. It is the Gene Simmons of high-turn-rate fighters. For example, when reheat is selected above 440kt, even with full aft stick control input at 9g, the aircraft will begin rapidly to accelerate, causing its turn circle steadily to increase. The only way to slow down is to throttle back.
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Unread post08 Jan 2018, 01:44

I have flown against many different types of aircraft. Without writing an essay, the 16 and 18 were always the most troubling for me. It was always hard to acquire the 16 while maneuvering and then maintain. It's small, fast, and blends in surprising well with different backgrounds. I didn't like the f-18 because of his nose authority at slow speeds ( if they got that slow) , those guys always seemed to be able to get their nose around on you.
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Unread post08 Jan 2018, 01:55

tailgate wrote: Both the F-22 and F-15 thrive in the A/A enviro. It's what they do. The F-15 is undefeated ( until someone provides evidence against speculated claims) and is still feared around the globe. I never feared anything while flying the F-22.


When Saudi F-15C (with F100-PW-220) went up against Rafales in Green Shield 2014 exercises they went 3-3 and that was the Rafale pilots saying that.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/saudi-an ... le.330385/

Two weeks into the exercise, the Saudis have grown into the Nancy environment and are giving the French a hard time. Camille Jolly, a weapons systems officer (‘wizzo’) from Nancy, flew against the Saudi pilots in the backseat of a Dassault Rafale B in the morning. “We were actually killed by them, but we did take out some of their aircraft too. I think the score was an equal 3-3.” According to Jolly the general goal of a Green Shield mission is to force a hole in air defenses by using offensive air, so that Mirage 2000D strike aircraft can move through to hit their targets.


http://www.touchdown-aviation.com/repor ... 3-2014.php
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Unread post08 Jan 2018, 06:45

My only question is, can f22 beat typhoon and rafale without using thrust vectoring?
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Unread post08 Jan 2018, 06:49

gta4 wrote:My only question is, can f22 beat typhoon and rafale without using thrust vectoring?


From F-22 pilot interview(s) I have read, the only times F-22's lost were when thrust vectoring was used by relatively new, low time pilots fell in love with it. That is, he got so slow / low energy and commanded a maneuver that commanded thrust vectoring, and his low energy state gave him up.

I believe that when the F-22 maintains its energy, it has yet to be beaten.

That all being said, I'd love to hear tailgate's answer to this question.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post08 Jan 2018, 08:01

AFAIK, the thrust vectoring can't be turned off on the f-22
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Unread post08 Jan 2018, 08:05

mas wrote:
tailgate wrote: Both the F-22 and F-15 thrive in the A/A enviro. It's what they do. The F-15 is undefeated ( until someone provides evidence against speculated claims) and is still feared around the globe. I never feared anything while flying the F-22.


When Saudi F-15C (with F100-PW-220) went up against Rafales in Green Shield 2014 exercises they went 3-3 and that was the Rafale pilots saying that.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/saudi-an ... le.330385/

Two weeks into the exercise, the Saudis have grown into the Nancy environment and are giving the French a hard time. Camille Jolly, a weapons systems officer (‘wizzo’) from Nancy, flew against the Saudi pilots in the backseat of a Dassault Rafale B in the morning. “We were actually killed by them, but we did take out some of their aircraft too. I think the score was an equal 3-3.” According to Jolly the general goal of a Green Shield mission is to force a hole in air defenses by using offensive air, so that Mirage 2000D strike aircraft can move through to hit their targets.


http://www.touchdown-aviation.com/repor ... 3-2014.php

Now Now, I think they mean in the real world and not red flag like exercise, where they have ROE limiting red air. If you want to think that the rafale has a chance against the f-15 radar and missiles in the real world, please go ahead.
Last edited by optimist on 08 Jan 2018, 08:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post08 Jan 2018, 08:06

mas wrote:
mas wrote:How did the Rafale/Typhoon compare against the F-22 and against each other ?

What fighter gave you the most trouble in a visual mock dogfight and did you ever do any DACT against any Russian fighters ? I take your point about the F-22 which I also agree is the best combat aircraft ever built. At any angle you look at it it just looks so stealthy so getting radar/missile locks on it at any angle must be tough. Opponents are probably down to options like IRST/IR missiles and guns ... If they have lived that long ;).

SEE: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=53310&p=372919&hilit=Barrett#p372919
Stealth technology gap narrows, but US Air Force’s experience could give it an edge
02 Aug 2017 Valerie Insinna

"...[Barrett, a former F-22 pilot] In the first month, everyone wanted to go fight the Raptor. After about two months, they realized it wasn’t much fun, they had better things to do and we started self-supporting each other. But the Raptor makes a really poor Red Air [adversarial aircraft] because even another Raptor doesn’t see another Raptor very well,” he said. “We had to evolve our way through this.”...

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/08/ ... t-an-edge/
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Unread post08 Jan 2018, 08:52

f-16adf wrote:I earlier posted a video with F-18C HUD gun kills on a Rafale (C version, I believe).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... 3b-b762QRY

My point is that in the low speed realm the Hornet remains competitive (if not superior in many instances). Higher speeds, probably a different story. Within that realm the French jet just seems it has the advantage.


I think I do remember the original article stating that the C model Hornet was a tough(er) opponent (it was nearly 16 years ago); yet it seemed that the Rafale still scored the majority of kills.

It was the Tomcat that took the far greater beating. And prior reading books about how great the "GE motors" were suppose to make it (as F-14 pilots were saying "we can now fly the air-frame and not the engines"). I was just rather stunned.


The funny thing is the Rafale M has an even lower T/W ratio than the Rafale C.


F/A-18C is definitely very capable WVR machine still. In Swiss evaluation (according to their report) it was found better than Rafale, EF Typhoon and Gripen in that environment due to maturity of JHMCS and AIM-9X combo the Swiss Hornets had. Of course EPE engined Swiss Hornets also have good T/W ratio (very comparable to Rafale) and great high AoA capabilities. So even in guns-only fight they are going to be tough to beat.
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Unread post08 Jan 2018, 09:20

You also have to factor in the early flight control system and the later update. It went from pretty ordinary to something high AOA and cleaned up a lot of departure points. On the day back then, the rafale was out manoeuvring the hornet. You would need a more recent DACT, post 2003
https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/aeronautics ... _brief.pdf
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Unread post08 Jan 2018, 10:00

Yes hornets are much more potent dogfighter after FCS uphrade. I posted a video showing a hornet with 2 fuel tanks pointed its nose to a rafale after neutral merge. Check my old post.
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Unread post08 Jan 2018, 10:20

The F-22's Thrust Vectoring is not a button, it is tied to the amount of stick force that is being pulled. Watch a vid of a F-22 landing as he aero brakes the stabs go down, and so does the engine nozzles (because they are tied together).


You guys seem to be getting the wrong idea. I am not saying the Hornet is inferior to anything (I never have in all my posts on this forum, in fact I have always said that it is underrated as fighter), nor in am I a eurocanard fanboy. All I said that back 16 years ago. According to Combat Aircraft mag and the French source that I just found and posted a few days ago. I remember reading that the Rafale M (the carrier version) had some success against US NAVY types (F-14D, F-18C).


The US Navy aviators probably knew nothing of Rafale capabilities, while i'm sure the Rafale guys knew the positives and negatives of the American jets. Against the Hornet they probably scored most of their kills at higher speeds, and knew not to get too slow against it.

I never said or implied that the EF or Rafale are invincible. Technology marches on..... They are much newer than the teen series and have certain advantages and disadvantages against them. The canard delta is not a magic bullet. There are gun kills on EF, Rafale, and Gripen by F-16MLU, Turkish GE Block 30-50, and Hornets on them. Even according to the Italian AF the F-16ADF and EF are equals from SL to 10K (the ADF version only has the 23,800lb PW F-100-220 engine).

Again, I earlier posted a vid of US Navy F-18C's killing Rafales. And I have seen F-16 gun kills on EF and Rafale.

I believe a modernized F-16 or F-18 (as with the euros: modernized weight savings composites construction, up-rated engines) would be on an equal footing with them, or in certain areas -have the advantage. I think take a Block 15, swap out engine for a Pratt IPE like the -229, and it would probably dominate the eurocanards WVR , or just about anything else.
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Unread post08 Jan 2018, 11:57

mas wrote:How did the Rafale/Typhoon compare against the F-22 and against each other ?



""Damn fu.....ing LPD modes"

"But... i was well in his six!"
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Unread post08 Jan 2018, 12:16

f-16adf wrote:You guys seem to be getting the wrong idea. I am not saying the Hornet is inferior to anything (I never have in all my posts on this forum, in fact I have always said that it is underrated as fighter), nor in am I a eurocanard fanboy. All I said that back 16 years ago. According to Combat Aircraft mag and the French source that I just found and posted a few days ago. I remember reading that the Rafale M (the carrier version) had some success against US NAVY types (F-14D, F-18C).


The US Navy aviators probably knew nothing of Rafale capabilities, while i'm sure the Rafale guys knew the positives and negatives of the American jets. Against the Hornet they probably scored most of their kills at higher speeds, and knew not to get too slow against it.

I never said or implied that the EF or Rafale are invincible. Technology marches on..... They are much newer than the teen series and have certain advantages and disadvantages against them. The canard delta is not a magic bullet. There are gun kills on EF, Rafale, and Gripen by F-16MLU, Turkish GE Block 30-50, and Hornets on them. Even according to the Italian AF the F-16ADF and EF are equals from SL to 10K (the ADF version only has the 23,800lb PW F-100-220 engine).

Again, I earlier posted a vid of US Navy F-18C's killing Rafales. And I have seen F-16 gun kills on EF and Rafale.

I believe a modernized F-16 or F-18 (as with the euros: modernized weight savings composites construction, up-rated engines) would be on an equal footing with them, or in certain areas -have the advantage. I think take a Block 15, swap out engine for a Pratt IPE like the -229, and it would probably dominate the eurocanards WVR , or just about anything else.


This is very true. I pointed out the Swiss evaluation where Hornet was found better in WVR to all candidates (Eurocanards) due to JHMCS/AIM-9X combo. 16 years ago F/A-18C would not have had those and Rafale would've likely had advantage especially if it had MICA-IR missiles with HOBS capabilities (but without the HMS). I think F/A-18C with JHMCS and AIM-9X vs Rafale with HMS and MICA-IR would be a very close WVR fight. Of course that it very, very small part of what a fighter aircraft must be capable of doing.
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