F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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lbk000

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Unread post06 Dec 2017, 00:44

ricnunes wrote:By the way, why wasn't the Super Hornet considered in the Swiss evaluation?

This is "strange" because the Super Hornet should in my opinion be a "natural consideration" since the Swiss Air Force currently operates the Legacy Hornet.

I don't think so, rather the Swiss are savvy enough to understand the super bug's resemblance to legacy bugs is only skin deep.
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Unread post06 Dec 2017, 03:13

lbk000 wrote:
ricnunes wrote:By the way, why wasn't the Super Hornet considered in the Swiss evaluation?

This is "strange" because the Super Hornet should in my opinion be a "natural consideration" since the Swiss Air Force currently operates the Legacy Hornet.

I don't think so, rather the Swiss are savvy enough to understand the super bug's resemblance to legacy bugs is only skin deep.


I would question that, at various levels :

1) Remember that the Defense Minister tried to shove the Gripen as the F-5E/F replacement despite being the worst contender and being inferior in the evaluation to the current F/A-18C/D IIRC, so there would be some bad apples in the government and maybe in the top brass.
2) In the referendum to decide whether to buy the Gripen or not, the population voted no, but I would question which percentage voted no because the Gripen was a bad choice versus how many said no because they thought fighter aircraft are useless...

Some are certainly savvy enough to know the difference between the Hornet and Super Hornet, but I would bet they're the 1% of the population or less, and note that the Swiss practice a conscription system where the number of full-time professionals is very low.
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steve2267

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Unread post06 Dec 2017, 06:04

I don't know if it made Franc sense... but replacing F-5s with Gripen's actually makes some sense, as the Gripen is more in the F-5 class. I'd say it is at the upper end of that class. So replacing F-5E/F's with Gripen C/D's and the F-18's with EF or Rafale or Super Dupers has a certain logic to it.

Of course, I think Switzerland would be best with all F-35B's... :mrgreen:
Take an F-16, stir in a little A-7, bake, then sprinkle on a generous helping of F-117. What do you get? An F-35.
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ricnunes

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Unread post06 Dec 2017, 13:22

Yes, I believe you guys are onto something here when you mentioned that the Swiss competition/evaluation was for the F-5 replacement and as such not for the Legacy Hornet replacement.

Perhaps and since these military purchases usually have to go thru a referendum, the Swiss government felt that it would be hard to "sell the idea" of a Super Hornet replacing the F-5 while still maintaining the Legacy Hornet fleet which will inevitably and rather soon need to be replaced as well?
I don't if what I'm saying makes any sense or not but in the end what I mean is that and if the Swiss government/military really have some real interest in the Super Hornet (which apparently they don't seem to have) then such purchase would make more sense as a Legacy Hornet replacement rather than as a F-5 replacement and hence why the Super Hornet wasn't considered in such competition/evaluation in the first place.

P.S - Yes, I know that "internally" the Super Hornet is basically unrelated to the Legacy Hornet but the general population (worldwide) doesn't seem to have this idea (they think that the Super Hornet is a basically an "updated Hornet" instead of completely a new aircraft) and since such purchase has to go thru a referendum, well I think you get the idea... :wink:
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Unread post06 Dec 2017, 17:39

ricnunes wrote:By the way, why wasn't the Super Hornet considered in the Swiss evaluation?

This is "strange" because the Super Hornet should in my opinion be a "natural consideration" since the Swiss Air Force currently operates the Legacy Hornet.


Well the main reason was, the Super Hornet was to "big" in 2 ways. For the infrastructure of the swiss AF, and also for the mission the Fighter was needed. The f-18 was primarily constructed for air to ground. And the swiss AF need a Fighter for air to air, especially air policing. It was Boeing it self, who withdraw the SH from the evaluation.

The "no" for the Grippen was a combination from folks who won't a Army anymore, and guys who were disappointed with poor performance from the Grippen, and he exits only on paper. Many think also, there is no need to replace the F-5 when we still have F/A-18. So even people who want a strong army, voted with 24 % against the Grippen.

I voted also for no. I think it was the right decision. Because now we can replace the F-18 with one Aircraft. It make no sense for such a small air force, to operate with two type of Aircraft.

Interestingly our Secretary of Defense Guy Parmelin also invite Boeings SH for the new evaluation.
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Unread post06 Dec 2017, 18:03

8) Aaahh 'swiss' - it has been over 25 years since I have sung 'Inna binna highralli boyb, oh Yungfrau Hahn in noig' or something like that. :mrgreen: Ich sprechen kai Deutsch, Ich sprechen Anglisch. SwytzerDeutsch not written down sadly. :shock: Over there during that time I was amazed to see one of your last Venom/Vampires flying down a deep valley in the far distance. What an unexpected thrill. Then saw a single seater Venom in the Lucerne Transport Museum. Oh Joy Oh Frabjous Day! (Jabberwocky) :D
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post06 Dec 2017, 18:29

spazsinbad wrote:8) Aaahh 'swiss' - it has been over 25 years since I have sung 'Inna binna highralli boyb, oh Yungfrau Hahn in noig' or something like that. :mrgreen: Ich sprechen kai Deutsch, Ich sprechen Anglisch. SwytzerDeutsch not written down sadly. :shock: Over there during that time I was amazed to see one of your last Venom/Vampires flying down a deep valley in the far distance. What an unexpected thrill. Then saw a single seater Venom in the Lucerne Transport Museum. Oh Joy Oh Frabjous Day! (Jabberwocky) :D


Haha. Your Tscherman is not bad for a Aussie. :shock: :wink: I hope you enjoyed your time in Luzern/Schweiz. Yes the Vampire and Venom where my favorites Fighter planes when i was a kid. Very interesting design. But i assume not very competitive.
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Unread post06 Dec 2017, 20:47

Yep. I forgot the 'schoeni' in the 'highralli boyb'. Gruetzi Mitternand (goodmorning all/together) was my favourite saying. It would astonish people in SCHWYZ (and I climbed the Grosser MYTHEN mountain) with my aussie accent. :mrgreen: The Vampire and Venom were competitive in their day but not by the mid 1980s! :roll: AFAIK the Swiss Venoms were used for recon in their last days by the Swiss AF - I'd have to google & by then the dual seat Vampires were civilian owned for joy flights?
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post06 Dec 2017, 20:56

spazsinbad wrote:8) Aaahh 'swiss' - it has been over 25 years since I have sung 'Inna binna highralli boyb, oh Yungfrau Hahn in noig' or something like that. :mrgreen: Ich sprechen kai Deutsch, Ich sprechen Anglisch. SwytzerDeutsch not written down sadly. :shock: Over there during that time I was amazed to see one of your last Venom/Vampires flying down a deep valley in the far distance. What an unexpected thrill. Then saw a single seater Venom in the Lucerne Transport Museum. Oh Joy Oh Frabjous Day! (Jabberwocky) :D


Was hast du geschrieben ?! My eyes bleed when exposed to excessive amounts of Deutsch. :twisted:
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Unread post06 Dec 2017, 21:06

Aahh Yeah BUT! Have you heard native Swiss-Germans speak their local dialect of 'SchwytzerDoitch' in lilting sing song manner? Instantly recognizable & music to thine ears. German spoken by Germans? Not so much - too guttural & LOUD!

:doh: Schoeni Boybli am I. :devil:
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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ricnunes

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Unread post06 Dec 2017, 23:21

swiss wrote:Well the main reason was, the Super Hornet was to "big" in 2 ways. For the infrastructure of the swiss AF, and also for the mission the Fighter was needed. The f-18 was primarily constructed for air to ground. And the swiss AF need a Fighter for air to air, especially air policing. It was Boeing it self, who withdraw the SH from the evaluation.

The "no" for the Grippen was a combination from folks who won't a Army anymore, and guys who were disappointed with poor performance from the Grippen, and he exits only on paper. Many think also, there is no need to replace the F-5 when we still have F/A-18. So even people who want a strong army, voted with 24 % against the Grippen.

I voted also for no. I think it was the right decision. Because now we can replace the F-18 with one Aircraft. It make no sense for such a small air force, to operate with two type of Aircraft.

Interestingly our Secretary of Defense Guy Parmelin also invite Boeings SH for the new evaluation.


Thanks for your insight swiss.

Regarding your opinion, yes I agree with it with a sole exception which is in the part where you say "The f-18 was primarily constructed for air to ground". I must completely disagree with this (although and again I agree with the rest of your post).
The F-18 was "primarily constructed for air to ground" the same way that the Rafale, F-35 or Gripen were "primarily constructed for air to ground" or resuming neither any of these aircraft (F-18, F-35, Rafale or Gripen) were "primarily constructed for air to ground", they were constructed to be multi-role aircraft or resuming they were equally built for air-to-air and air-to-ground.

I'm saying this because I believe that this "urban myth" that the F-18 or as an extend the F-35 were primarily built for Air-to-Ground while at the same I find odd that apparently many people trend to think that the Rafale or Gripen were primarily built for Air-to-Air...
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Unread post07 Dec 2017, 00:25

spazsinbad wrote:Yep. I forgot the 'schoeni' in the 'highralli boyb'. Gruetzi Mitternand (goodmorning all/together) was my favourite saying. It would astonish people in SCHWYZ (and I climbed the Grosser MYTHEN mountain) with my aussie accent. :mrgreen: The Vampire and Venom were competitive in their day but not by the mid 1980s! :roll: AFAIK the Swiss Venoms were used for recon in their last days by the Swiss AF - I'd have to google & by then the dual seat Vampires were civilian owned for joy flights?


Amazing. It seems you are a half Swiss/Aussie Guy. ;) Yes some Venoms are in civilian hands. I see the Mythen several times per year but was never on top of it. :oops: Looks you had a nice time in my country. :D

@Viper12: A common. I read english everyday and my eyes are still alive. :wink:

DEUTSCH IST SO EINE SCHÖNE SPRACHE!!! :P But i know what you mean. spazsinbad is right, swiss german sounds a lot friendlier.
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Unread post07 Dec 2017, 00:46

ricnunes wrote:Thanks for your insight swiss.

Regarding your opinion, yes I agree with it with a sole exception which is in the part where you say "The f-18 was primarily constructed for air to ground". I must completely disagree with this (although and again I agree with the rest of your post).
The F-18 was "primarily constructed for air to ground" the same way that the Rafale, F-35 or Gripen were "primarily constructed for air to ground" or resuming neither any of these aircraft (F-18, F-35, Rafale or Gripen) were "primarily constructed for air to ground", they were constructed to be multi-role aircraft or resuming they were equally built for air-to-air and air-to-ground.

I'm saying this because I believe that this "urban myth" that the F-18 or as an extend the F-35 were primarily built for Air-to-Ground while at the same I find odd that apparently many people trend to think that the Rafale or Gripen were primarily built for Air-to-Air...


Your welcome ric
I know what you mean. But the main problem was/is the size of the SH. The swiss AF would to have enlarge the Caverns/hangars. So i think the race is on between F-35, Rafale, EF and Grippen.
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Unread post07 Dec 2017, 00:56

spazsinbad wrote:Aahh Yeah BUT! Have you heard native Swiss-Germans speak their local dialect of 'SchwytzerDoitch' in lilting sing song manner? Instantly recognizable & music to thine ears. German spoken by Germans? Not so much - too guttural & LOUD!

:doh: Schoeni Boybli am I. :devil:


I did hear Schwyzerdütsch and regular German ; on one occasion, I had to buy some groceries near Zürich, and despite years of learning German, didn't understand a damn thing when the cashier said the price. :bang:

Anyway, one thing I don't get is how the size of underground (or rather, undermountain) hangars is such an important factor when trying to buy fighter jets ; buying and sustaining a couple dozen fighters is something that costs a few billion dollars, so if a larger fighter was proposed, would it have been way too costly to enlarge the hangars ?

It's also quite surprising that the Super Hornet was deemed too large, when only one dimension is bigger than the Eurofighter, its length. On paper, the Super Hornet also has a bigger wingspan, but according to this source, it's below 10m wide when its wings are folded, which is around 1m less than the Eurofighter : http://www.airvectors.net/avhorn_2.html

Yet the Eurofighter was still part of the competition.
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Unread post07 Dec 2017, 03:38

Yes 'viper12' you have hit on the secret of SwytzerDuetchie - Germans do not understand, complaining bitterly for these Swytzers from SWYTOland T O O S L O W down. :roll:

'swiss' perhaps you have not seen my bio here (mentioned several tymes). I'm so old that back in the late 60s early 1970s I flew Vampires in the RAAF then RAN FAA where I also flew the Sea Venom (but not onboard HMAS Melbourne) then the A4G Skyhawk onboard (quite different from those other relics :drool: ). :mrgreen: Checkout the link at the bottom of my posts.

AND... not only is SwisserDutch not written (or written in a dictionary) the various cantons have their own version which sometimes confuses the speaker of DuetchieSWiSH from another canton - not just accent but words/meanings etc. :doh:

What I imagine doing to the trolls on this forum sometimes is spray them with some SWISS FARMER Perfume (liquefied cow manure sprayed on fields/passing cars / the whole damn greener than green countryside wot hurt my eyes.) And then there are the BELLS! Cow Bells, Church Bells, School Bells.... :P Every street parade has the bellswingers making a racket but I did enjoy the YODELLING by really professional groups usually having a great time yodeling away with alpenhorns!

Then there are the MOUNTAINS - better than the ROCKIES near Denver and that is some compliment from a flat lander.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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