F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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mas

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Unread post27 Nov 2017, 20:43

PIRATE IRST has automatic detection/tracking in the frontal cone of its sensor but the pilot does have to point his aircraft roughly at the bogies, not a problem if your RWR has already alerted you roughly where they are.

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/global/p ... srt/pirate
Last edited by mas on 27 Nov 2017, 20:45, edited 1 time in total.
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monkeypilot

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Unread post27 Nov 2017, 20:44

neurotech wrote:
wrightwing wrote:The F-35's RCS isn't .001m^2 squared, though. It's closer to .0001m^2, which is why the detection range of the Typhoon's radar, will be closer to 25km (or less.)

When you get to 25m (~14nm), an IRST system, including those fitted to the Typhoon (or other 4th gen fighter) can track a stealth target, but only if the pilot knows where to look. The F-35 is the only fighter currently in service that has spherical EODAS. This means that the Typhoon would have to know which patch of sky to scan in order to locate a low RCS adversary with IRST while the F-35 can find the Typhoon using EODAS easily.


irST (Search and track). It is meant to scan no?
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mas

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Unread post27 Nov 2017, 20:46

Yes, but only like a forward facing radar, to the frontal arc.



Here's a good old thread on it

viewtopic.php?t=8363
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Unread post27 Nov 2017, 21:18

mas wrote:Yes, but only like a forward facing radar, to the frontal arc.



Indeed.

Here's a good old thread on it

viewtopic.php?t=8363
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Unread post27 Nov 2017, 21:59

blindpilot wrote:
mas wrote:Blindpilot: Typhoons were not unsuccessful in air to ground operations in Red Flag and they had to go through SAMs.

blindpilot wrote:...
.. You could not get one British pilot to fly alone in his Typhoon ... without serious support (ECM and lotsa other systems) Not one would climb into the cockpit.
BP

We have no clue as to blue overall tactics, (how much ECM support, lane clearing by F-22/35s, stand off attacks etc.) nor rules of engagement. I stand by my statement. You will not find one British pilot ready to take his single Typhoon into the target ... they will all be in the line to fly the "Bee".

but that's just MHO,
BP


This RAF pilot at around 9:55 mins says they have never had a Typhoon shot down at Red Flag by simulated Red SAMs due to DASS. Bold claim !

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Unread post28 Nov 2017, 01:50

RAF pilots are shilling for a national program and to justify a huge RAF investment in dead technology.
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white_lightning35

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Unread post28 Nov 2017, 02:22

It is amazing; even the fifth-gens get shot down during Red Flags, which are considered to be extremely difficult exercises, but not a single typhoon has. Ever. Their dass is so amazing that no matter the difficulty level they come out unscathed. Red Flags cannot do enough to challenge the mighty typhoon and its dass. Virtual scenarios probably can't, either. The typhoons dass can singlehandedly make up for the typhoon's lack of VLO,(which is worthless because of muh irst), 360 degree tracking system, unrivalled in many areas AESA radar, incredible sensor fusion, and by extremely far the most advanced threat detection and EW capabilities of any fighter on the planet. All of which the f-35 has. And f-35's still get shot down.

Suspicious......
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lbk000

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Unread post28 Nov 2017, 04:46

Too busy warming the benches to get shot down.
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Unread post28 Nov 2017, 09:31

Germany had the option of replacing their Tornados with Typhoons. They didn't and even said the F-35 was the only aircraft capable of doing what they needed. That says everything you need to know.
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mas

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Unread post28 Nov 2017, 11:01

It is amazing; even the fifth-gens get shot down during Red Flags, which are considered to be extremely difficult exercises, but not a single typhoon has. Ever. Their dass is so amazing that no matter the difficulty level they come out unscathed. Red Flags cannot do enough to challenge the mighty typhoon and its dass.

He didn't say it never got shot down at all, just not by SAMs and was he just talking about RAF experience or the whole Typhoon community. I too find it very hard to believe without knowing the full context but I only linked it as a counterpoint to those saying Typhoons would not do bombing missions against SAMs without support. After all Rafales did bombing missions against the Lybians before their SAMs were taken down despite being warned by the US not to. The Spanish Typhoons survived most of their bombing sorties during their recent Red Flag but again were their losses to SAMs or supporting Aggressors. Sure VLO is current flavor of the recent decades but electronic/physical countermeasures should not be underestimated even in this age. Many ways to skin a cat and get the job done.
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Unread post28 Nov 2017, 12:37

mas wrote:Sure VLO is current flavor of the recent decades but electronic/physical countermeasures should not be underestimated even in this age. Many ways to skin a cat and get the job done.


Again, this makes no sense. A VLO plane requires less ECM and countermeasures than a non LO plane because the RCS is already small. A VLO plane benefits far more from ECM as it requires far less energy to do the same job. On top of that, less ECM means that it isn't screwing up friendly sensors.
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Unread post28 Nov 2017, 13:54

kimjongnumbaun wrote:
mas wrote:Sure VLO is current flavor of the recent decades but electronic/physical countermeasures should not be underestimated even in this age. Many ways to skin a cat and get the job done.


Again, this makes no sense. A VLO plane requires less ECM and countermeasures than a non LO plane because the RCS is already small. A VLO plane benefits far more from ECM as it requires far less energy to do the same job. On top of that, less ECM means that it isn't screwing up friendly sensors.


It's pretty simple. If RCS is decreased to 1/10th of original, jamming power can be decreased to 1/10th also and the end result is the same. Similarly RCS decrease to 1/100 needs only 1/100 the jamming power. This also gives the advantage of making the jamming much harder to detect (and thus counter). Of course there is also less need for jamming which means less emissions which means aircraft is less detectable by ESM sensors. RCS reduction and EW go hand in hand and are not contradictory.

F-35 is a monster when it comes to EW. It has miniscule RCS and massive jamming system in AN/ASQ-239 and AN/APG-81 combo.
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Unread post28 Nov 2017, 17:55

According to Denmark MoD internal audit:
Mission effectiveness
F-35_effectiveness.jpg

Survivability
F-35_survivability_2.png

Some details of their simulated scenarios:
Close Air Support scenario:
Air Order Of Battle:
Eight rotary wing aircraft:
- Four Mi-8 transport helicopters.
- Four Mi-24 attack helicopters.
Four fixed-wing aircraft:
- SU-25 Frogfoot ground attack aircraft. The SU-25 is armed with: Air-to-ground munitions. 25 mm cannon. Two AA-8 Aphid air-to-air missiles.

Ground Order Of Battle:
Adversary forces in the vicinity of "Romeo Kilo" town bestå of a mechanized infantry brigade and two armored battalions as well as para military units in "technicals". Adversary army units operate a number of ZSU-23/4 antiaircraft artillery vehicles.

Missile Order Of Battle:
SAM system are attached til mechanized infantry brigade but the exact locations are unknown prior two mission start.
Radio-frequency seeking SAMs:
One SA-6,
One SA-8 thereof.
Operators are experienced. Missile systems are fitted with optical tracking devices. The exact position of the SA-6 and the SA-8 are unknown.
Mobile infrared (IR) SAM: SA-7, SA-14, SA-18 and SA-24 (vehicle mounted). IR SAM systems are udbredt distributed amongst adversary troops and can be expected in the general operating area


Strike, Coordination and Reconnaissance scenario:
Air Order of Battle:
Eight rotary wing aircraft:
- Two Mi-8 transport helicopters,
- Four Gazelle light attack helicopters,
- Two Mi-24 attack helicopters.
Four fixed-wing aircraft:
- L-39 Albatros light ground attack aircraft.

Missile Order of Battle:
Radio-frequency seeking SAM:
- Two SA-eighth Operators are experienced. Missile systems are fitted with optical tracking devices. The locations of the SAM system are unknown, but deres presence can be expected in the area of ​​operations.
Mobile infrared (IR) SAM:
SA-7, SA-14, SA-13, SA-18, SA-24 (vehicle mounted), Stinger "basic".
IR SAM systems are distributed amongst adversary troops, including the position in close proximity to the Deployed home base


Air Interdiction scenario:
Air-Interdiction.jpg

Air Order Of Battle:
- Six SU-30mk. Four aircraft förväntas be airborne. The remaining two aircraft are on "ready state 15" at the Echo Zulu air base. The aircraft are armed with four AA-11 infrared air-to-air missiles, four PL-12 active radar missiles, SAP-518 self-protection jammer pods.
- Six MiG-29 SMT. All aircraft can be expected on "ready state 30" to Echo Zulu air base. The aircraft are armed with: Four AA-11 infrared air-to-air missiles, four PL-12 active radar missiles, Gardenia jammer pod.

Missile Order Of Battle:
Radio-frequency seeking SAMs:
- Unknown number of SA-eighth The SA-8s förväntas be distributed and are unlocated Throughout The adversary territory.
- Three SA-10th 44 Accurate locations are unknown.
- Four SA-11th Accurate locations are unknown.
- Unknown number of SA-15th The SA-15s are expected to be distributed and are unlocated Throughout The adversary territory.
Infrared seeking SAMs:
- Unknown number of SA-14
- Unknown number of SA-18,
- Unknown number of SA-24th
The Infrared seeking SAMs are distributed and are unlocated Throughout The adversary territory


Suppression / Destruction of Enemy Air Defence scenario
Suppression.jpg

Air Order Of Battle:
- Six SU-30mk. Four aircraft kan förväntas be airborne. The remaining two aircraft are on ready state 15 to "Charlie Papa" air base. The aircraft are armed with: Four AA-11 infrared air-to-air missiles, four PL-12 active radar missiles, SAP-518 self-protection jammer pods.

Missile Order Of Battle
:
Radio-frequency seeking Surface-to-Air Missiles (SAM):
- One SA-20 GARGOYLE battery in vicinity of "Bravo Hotel" town.
- Eight SA-11 Gadfly beskytte the SA-20th
- Unknown number of SA-22 organic two army units.
Exact positioning of the SAMs are unknown. HOWEVER, the SA-22s can be expected close to the SA-20 site for protection.
Infrared (IR) Seeking SAM:
- Unknown number of SA-14s.
- Unknown number of SA-18s.
- Unknown number of SA-24s.
The Infrared seeking SAMs are expected to be distributed army units and are located Throughout The adversary territory.

Electronic Order Of Battle:
Adversary early warning radars and ground-controlled intercept network are assumed two be intact and Capable of Providing botheration early warning and control two adversary platforms


Defensive Counter Air scenario:
Air Order Of Battle:
- Six SU-30mk. The aircraft are armed with: o Four AA-11 infrared air-to-air missiles. Four PL-12 active radar missiles. SAP-518 self-protection jammer pods.
- Four MiG-29 SMT. The aircraft are armed with: Four AA-11 infrared air-to-air missiles. Four PL-12 active radar missiles. Gardenia jammer pod.
- Four SU-24 Fencer-D, The aircraft are armed with: Two AA-11 infrared air-to-air missiles. Guided air two ground munitions.
- One SS-N-30A cruise missile.

Electronic Order Of Battle:
- Two x SU-30mk. These aircraft are Deployed as dedicated jammer platforms. The aircraft are armed with: Four AA-11 infrared air-to-air missiles, four PL-12 active radar missiles, SAP-518 self-protection jammer pod, SAP-14 jammer pod.
- One IL-76 Mainstay airborne early warning platform
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Unread post28 Nov 2017, 18:43

Do you have a link to the original PDF or site?
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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Unread post28 Nov 2017, 20:42

@eloise,

Thanks for your post. It's a very throughout comparison between the F-35 vs Super Hornet vs Typhoon and even more, it's official information taken from an "official study" and not some "magician pulling out rabbits from the hat" kind of values :wink:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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