F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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popcorn

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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 08:19

kimjongnumbaun wrote:
n3sk wrote:Yeah but what fun would that be.


Funny you say that. A guy in my unit transitioned to the F-22. The F-22 guys are leaving for the commercial sector because the missions are dull and they get paid better on the outside. F-22 pilots basically kill everything unopposed until their bingo fuel and repeat the next day.

Fortunately F-35 pilots have more fun doing A2G in addition to A2A.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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steve2267

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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 15:53

popcorn wrote:
kimjongnumbaun wrote:Funny you say that. A guy in my unit transitioned to the F-22. The F-22 guys are leaving for the commercial sector because the missions are dull and they get paid better on the outside. F-22 pilots basically kill everything unopposed until their bingo fuel and repeat the next day.

Fortunately F-35 pilots have more fun doing A2G in addition to A2A.


Yes... but... unless they get to strafe regularly...

"F-35 pilots basically kill anything that flies and flatten everything else, unopposed, until they're bingo fuel and repeat the next day."
Last edited by steve2267 on 01 Feb 2019, 16:23, edited 1 time in total.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 16:07

"I agree fully that EODAS is likely very underrated system for air-to-air combat. Especially in situations where there are multiple aircraft in the air. No pilot can track several aircraft at once all the time and have full understanding who is who and where. EODAS does exactly that. F-35 pilot does not need to worry about misidentification or losing sight of enemy aircraft or if there is an enemy aircraft somewhere he can't see."

A little refinement here -- EODAS does not do any tracking; it is a sensor, an input to the fusion engine. Fusion does the tracking.
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ricnunes

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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 17:43

optimist wrote:
hythelday wrote:
marsavian wrote:
Image


Just looking at that picture tells me the rafale has a very low RCS, I've seen said 0.1.. Perhaps I've been mistaken and rafale really is the king of the air. :mrgreen:


No, no, that value is right - it's indeed 0.1 square meters (RCS). However that value is incomplete since the RCS value of 0.1 square meters is the RCS per each square meter of the Rafale, and since the Rafale has an area of several square meters... :mrgreen:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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ricnunes

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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 17:52

quicksilver wrote:A little refinement here -- EODAS does not do any tracking; it is a sensor, an input to the fusion engine. Fusion does the tracking.


Yes indeed.
However the sensor fusion can only track a target (or track accurately) if it receives (accurate) input. If the target cannot be detected by the Radar (target outside the sensor detection area), IRST (target outside the sensor detection area), EW (the target is not emitting) this by either the own aircraft or by any other friendly aircraft/asset available (or not) then the sensor fusion will rely (solely) on EODAS.
This is something that no other aircraft has, or resuming in the case above the target cannot be tracked unless it is from a F-35 because of (again) EODAS.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post01 Feb 2019, 20:04

ricnunes wrote:
quicksilver wrote:A little refinement here -- EODAS does not do any tracking; it is a sensor, an input to the fusion engine. Fusion does the tracking.


Yes indeed.
However the sensor fusion can only track a target (or track accurately) if it receives (accurate) input. If the target cannot be detected by the Radar (target outside the sensor detection area), IRST (target outside the sensor detection area), EW (the target is not emitting) this by either the own aircraft or by any other friendly aircraft/asset available (or not) then the sensor fusion will rely (solely) on EODAS.
This is something that no other aircraft has, or resuming in the case above the target cannot be tracked unless it is from a F-35 because of (again) EODAS.


You left out CNI. :wink:

And on second thought, das likely has some filtering algorithms that it uses for threshold declaration and tracking of points of interest with delta T sufficiency. Reference the falcon 9 event on the NGC test bed some years ago off of the (US) Atlantic coast.
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Unread post02 Feb 2019, 04:25

How DAS acts in air combat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1NrFZddihQ
Combine 360 deg targeting with LOAL, that is an absolute game changer.
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Unread post02 Feb 2019, 09:19

wrightwing wrote:
There is no range, where Typhoon/Rafale pilots will be having Lightning soup.


We know the F-22/35 will maul any other aircraft in a realistic, no holds bar fight. most stories I hear pretty much go like, kill 80% of the formation BVR and kill the confused stragglers WVR.

But if you haven't noticed, we never hear those kinds of stories against non-American aircraft. We hear F-22s killing F-15s and F-16s whole sale, but we never hear Raptors killing Typhoons, Rafale's, Flankers even Hornets whole sale. In fact, its the other way around, F/A-18s, Typhoons and Rafale's have some highly publicized F-22 kills.

I think this is because of the respect the USAF has for other air services. you don't want to start a political war by saying a flight of Raptors just wiped out the elite RAF squadrons in 2 minutes.

So will it be any different with the F-35? By all accounts the F-22 is better than the F-35 in A-A so I won't expect the narrative to different. But on the other hand we may hear Italian AF F-35s say how dominant the F-35 is against their own Typhoons. Because its okay to ridicule your own assets.
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Unread post02 Feb 2019, 13:36

zero-one wrote:
wrightwing wrote:
There is no range, where Typhoon/Rafale pilots will be having Lightning soup.


But if you haven't noticed, we never hear those kinds of stories against non-American aircraft. We hear F-22s killing F-15s and F-16s whole sale, but we never hear Raptors killing Typhoons, Rafale's, Flankers even Hornets whole sale. In fact, its the other way around, F/A-18s, Typhoons and Rafale's have some highly publicized F-22 kills.

I think this is because of the respect the USAF has for other air services. you don't want to start a political war by saying a flight of Raptors just wiped out the elite RAF squadrons in 2 minutes.


IMO, you basically nailed it in your last paragraph above.

Anyway and just because we don't get reports of Typhoons, Rafales or Hornets getting slaughtered by F-22s (and F-35s by association) it doesn't mean that they didn't, don't and won't happen. IMO, it's very straightforward that this happens and will happen, for example:
Both the F-15 and F-16 (namely later versions) have parity with Typhoons, Rafales and Hornets.
Of course that we can argue that the for example Typhoon many be better in the 'A' and 'B' metrics than for example the F-15 while the F-15 is better in the 'X' or 'Y' metrics (compared to the Typhoon) but in overall these aircraft have a good level of parity between them. So IMO, it's easy and straightforward to reach the conclusion that the Typhoon would be slaughtered by the F-22/F-35 just the same way as the F-15 or F-16 get slaughtered.


zero-one wrote:So will it be any different with the F-35? By all accounts the F-22 is better than the F-35 in A-A so I won't expect the narrative to different. But on the other hand we may hear Italian AF F-35s say how dominant the F-35 is against their own Typhoons. Because its okay to ridicule your own assets.


No, it won't.
The F-22 being better than the F-35 in A-A is very debatable. The F-22 seems to be slightly better than the F-35 is in the agility department (energy and turning) and is definitely better in the performance department (speed, acceleration and ceiling) which many people usually and immediately "translate" to being better in A-A (perhaps a "Top Gun"/"Hollywood" effect?). But the fact is that the F-35 has it's advantages (compared to the F-22) even in the A-A arena, such as:
- Being potentially Stealthier (lower RCS), namely in the frontal aspect.
- DAS (see the advantages that for example it brings in an A-A WVR/Dogfight combat in the previous posts of this thread)
- EOTS
- Potentially better EW suite.

So I would say that the outcome of an Air-to-Air combat between the F-22 and F-35 is extremely hard to predict because both aircraft have a very good level of parity (albeit in part due to different reasons).
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post02 Feb 2019, 14:52

ricnunes wrote:Both the F-15 and F-16 (namely later versions) have parity with Typhoons, Rafales and Hornets.

Thats the thing, I have never heard of F-15s or F/A-18s being on PAR with Typhoons and Rafales. I did hear of a Rafale pilot saying his plane was better than F/A-18s.

Thinking to myself, well the Rafale is essentially France's attempt to build a 5th gen fighter. (same time line, same perceived threat and almost the same budget as the ATF program), if they somehow ended up with something just on par with the F/A-18E then thats a disappointment.



ricnunes wrote:The F-22 being better than the F-35 in A-A is very debatable.


Thats the thing, to me its not. Allow me to quote our admin here
Scorpion1alpha wrote:I can think of at least 3 other Lightning pilots who have publicly stated in the past that the F-35’s maneuverability is only on par with the best 4th Gen fighters and that it’ll NEVER equal the F-22’s level of maneuverability, despite what some F-35 fans that wants to put it in the Raptor’s level.

Lightning fans immediately ignore it and / or quickly point out some other feature about it (downplaying the maneuverability part as not important) and go from there.

Maj. Searcy is just the latest Lightning pilot that I’ve heard to have publicly stated what some in the Lightning fanbase has to understand: the jet is built from day one to fulfill a role and has a certain responsibility. In the US at least, it is to compliment the F-22. It is the low end of a Hi-Lo mix. It was made primarily for air-to-ground, but with some overlapping and credible air-to-air capability as is the inverse with the F-22: primarily air-to-air with credible air-to-ground capability. One cannot totally replace the other in their primary roles.


ricnunes wrote:The F-22 seems to be slightly better than the F-35 is in the agility department (energy and turning)

In parts of the envelope maybe. High subsonic with light fuel and ordnance loads maybe but if we're talking about supersonic maneuverability and post stall maneuverability then I don't think the F-35 is close at all.

performance is very important in A-A, even in BVR. Dozer recounted a story of killing F-15s, the survivors of the encounter quickly dove and made a dash for safety, they were supersonic. he was chasing them from behind in the Raptor and his closure rate to them was Mach 1. Thats something that would be impossible in an F-35, those F-15s would of gotten away.

ricnunes wrote:- Being potentially Stealthier (lower RCS), namely in the frontal aspect.

All documentations we have point to them being similarly Stealthy in RCS and IR spectrum. I would agree that the F-35 has more passive sensors making it more stealthy when gathering SA

ricnunes wrote:- DAS (see the advantages that for example it brings in an A-A WVR/Dogfight combat in the previous posts of this thread)

I have reservations here. Not that its not gona work but listening to an Interview from Dozer about his kills in Serbia, he talked about the many parameters he needed to meet to get into proper launch parameters.

We often think of missiles as magical wonder weapons that kill as soon as you're in range and have a lock. But it wasn't, even with the AMRAAM he needed to launch multiple rounds and repeatedly maneuver to increase his missile's Pk. He was also firing at a Mig-29 without the advanced ECMs. But after all that his missiles, 4 of them I think, missed.

Interview is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pivtRMOf8s

So I don't envision the F-35 simply locking on over the shoulder, Fox 2, Splash, I'm not saying thats impossible but if forced into WVR, you'd still want to get your target at bore-site before firing, remember you only have 2 Aim-9Xs.
Last edited by zero-one on 02 Feb 2019, 15:01, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread post02 Feb 2019, 14:55

Both the F-15 and F-16 (namely later versions) have parity with Typhoons, Rafales and Hornets.
Of course that we can argue that the for example Typhoon many be better in the 'A' and 'B' metrics than for example the F-15 while the F-15 is better in the 'X' or 'Y' metrics (compared to the Typhoon) but in overall these aircraft have a good level of parity between them.

I'm sorry, but no.
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Unread post02 Feb 2019, 15:27

Well In Kosovo war some amraams missed because many aim-120as were launched before the target entered its no escape zone (NEZ).

However, amraams launched at close range NEVER miss, in reality. Feel free to check the official record.

So it is safe to say the more maneuverable aim-9x block 2 have very high PK rate at close range.
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Unread post02 Feb 2019, 15:54

gta4 wrote:However, amraams launched at close range NEVER miss, in reality. Feel free to check the official record.

Well depends on how you define "close range"
Dozer shot 2 missiles within 15 miles which missed
he shot another at around 5 miles which hit

He engaged another Mig-29 with an Aim-120 at 5 miles which missed, possibly hit but his wingman continued to track the bandit after the missile "popped"

Dogfight encounters begin at 21 minute mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pivtRMOf8s
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Unread post02 Feb 2019, 18:01

ricnunes wrote:
No, it won't.
The F-22 being better than the F-35 in A-A is very debatable. The F-22 seems to be slightly better than the F-35 is in the agility department (energy and turning) and is definitely better in the performance department (speed, acceleration and ceiling) which many people usually and immediately "translate" to being better in A-A (perhaps a "Top Gun"/"Hollywood" effect?). But the fact is that the F-35 has it's advantages (compared to the F-22) even in the A-A arena, such as:
- Being potentially Stealthier (lower RCS), namely in the frontal aspect.
- DAS (see the advantages that for example it brings in an A-A WVR/Dogfight combat in the previous posts of this thread)
- EOTS
- Potentially better EW suite.

So I would say that the outcome of an Air-to-Air combat between the F-22 and F-35 is extremely hard to predict because both aircraft have a very good level of parity (albeit in part due to different reasons).


Stop spreading lies and BS. As many others have mentioned in the past, the f-22 has been unequivocally stated to be superior to the f-35 in A2A. Zero-one summed it up nicely in his post. Many pilots, including f-35 pilots, have already told members of this forum that the f-22 is superior in A2A. I don't know how many times statements of pilots and other in the know have to be brought up before some people start accepting reality.

This constant ignoring of reality by some members of this forum consistently drags down the quality of the discourse. Some f-35 fanboys here are exhibiting the same qualities that the basement-dwellers we like to mock do.
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Unread post02 Feb 2019, 18:36

zero-one wrote:
We often think of missiles as magical wonder weapons that kill as soon as you're in range and have a lock. But it wasn't, even with the AMRAAM he needed to launch multiple rounds and repeatedly maneuver to increase his missile's Pk. He was also firing at a Mig-29 without the advanced ECMs. But after all that his missiles, 4 of them I think, missed.

Interview is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pivtRMOf8s

So I don't envision the F-35 simply locking on over the shoulder, Fox 2, Splash, I'm not saying thats impossible but if forced into WVR, you'd still want to get your target at bore-site before firing, remember you only have 2 Aim-9Xs.


The SH over Syria needed also 2 shots to bring the Su-22 down. And not because the Su has an excellent EW suit or maneuverability. As far as we know it was a technical failure of the AIM-9x. As a EF Pilot told me, there is still a 20% miss chance for a modern A to A missile because of a technical issue.
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