F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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kimjongnumbaun

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Unread post29 Jan 2019, 22:24

n3sk wrote:f-35v E2000- 1v1- F -35 uses its superior everything to avoid the typhoon until it goes bingo fuel and lands... suddenly it begins to rain mini JDAMS

It’s a strike fighter, not a2a.


The F-35 would likely kill the EF without the EF ever realizing the F-35 was in the airspace. The features that make the F-35 deadly in the strike role are also the features that make it deadly in the A2A role, namely low observability and stealth. The radar equation doesn't change if the radar is on the ground or on a fighter.
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hythelday

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Unread post29 Jan 2019, 22:25

n3sk wrote:f-35v E2000- 1v1- F -35 uses its superior everything to avoid the typhoon until it goes bingo fuel and lands... suddenly it begins to rain mini JDAMS

It’s a strike fighter, not a2a.


Why does it avoid Typhoon if F-35 has "superior everything"?

F-35 isn't a F-105 type of strike fighter.
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steve2267

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Unread post30 Jan 2019, 04:16

SpudmanWP wrote:For all but the US, UK, and Italy the F-35 is going to be their premier A2A fighter. I think it will be very telling when UK/Italian F-35s start to train with their Eurofighters and we start to hear "whispers" from the F-35 pilots on the carnage that ensued.


Um... don't you mean when the Norwegians, Danes, Dutch, and Belgians start wiping the floor with the Eurofighters and Rafales... and those guys start asking their fellow Panther drivers for help?
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post30 Jan 2019, 04:59

steve2267 wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:For all but the US, UK, and Italy the F-35 is going to be their premier A2A fighter. I think it will be very telling when UK/Italian F-35s start to train with their Eurofighters and we start to hear "whispers" from the F-35 pilots on the carnage that ensued.


Um... don't you mean when the Norwegians, Danes, Dutch, and Belgians start wiping the floor with the Eurofighters and Rafales... and those guys start asking their fellow Panther drivers for help?



Italy is already using the F-35A for QRA's..... :devil:
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Unread post30 Jan 2019, 07:51

I'm pretty sure Tiffy pilots will say that the F-35's BVR capabilities make it almost invisible just like the Raptor. But once they hit the merge things start to get interesting and they were able to have Lightning soup for lunch .

If they fought clean, we might even get reports that the Typhoon was "substantially superior" to the F-35 in any sort of close in engagement.

That when intercepting bombers, the Typhoon has the upper hand with longer ranged Meteor or because it can super-cruise, it can hang high and fast with the Raptor.

Point is, the Europeans are proud and will find ways to make their fighters look like they belong in the 5th gen league
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Unread post30 Jan 2019, 07:55

zero-one wrote:I'm pretty sure Tiffy pilots will say that the F-35's BVR capabilities make it almost invisible just like the Raptor. But once they hit the merge things start to get interesting and they were able to have Lightning soup for lunch .

If they fought clean, we might even get reports that the Typhoon was "substantially superior" to the F-35 in any sort of close in engagement.

That when intercepting bombers, the Typhoon has the upper hand with longer ranged Meteor or because it can super-cruise, it can hang high and fast with the Raptor.

Point is, the Europeans are proud and will find ways to make their fighters look like they belong in the 5th gen league


All we need to do is line up an F-35A and Typhoon next to each other at the end of a runway. With both loaded at combat weights and see who comes out on top.... :wink:
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Unread post30 Jan 2019, 13:48

Corsair1963 wrote:
zero-one wrote:I'm pretty sure Tiffy pilots will say that the F-35's BVR capabilities make it almost invisible just like the Raptor. But once they hit the merge things start to get interesting and they were able to have Lightning soup for lunch .

If they fought clean, we might even get reports that the Typhoon was "substantially superior" to the F-35 in any sort of close in engagement.

That when intercepting bombers, the Typhoon has the upper hand with longer ranged Meteor or because it can super-cruise, it can hang high and fast with the Raptor.

Point is, the Europeans are proud and will find ways to make their fighters look like they belong in the 5th gen league


All we need to do is line up an F-35A and Typhoon next to each other at the end of a runway. With both loaded at combat weights and see who comes out on top.... :wink:


I agree.

Supercruise and "it turns like a Raptor" or not, I think you'll find Panthers downing Typhoons in exercises at an alarming rate. At which point Typhoon operators will be in a quandry as to what to do with the platform. Probably relegate it to 2nd day of war air superiority platforms or intercept/air policing duties. Something tells me these same nations are going to entertain additional F-35 buys once its air to everything superiority becomes apparent. That situation is only going to become more evident as the F-35 gets up-rated engines, weapons etc.. The Tiffy may too, but the great equalizer will always be stealth..

Of course, I could be wrong (but I don't think so). In much the same way that the Rafale compares (or doesn't) to an F-35, a 4.5 gen aircraft can only come so close to the level of stealth designed in from the get go. If I'm proven wrong, I'll gladly say so. But I think the USAF/USN/Marines already know the answer, and that's why they're buying F-35's, vs. up-rated F-15's, 16's and Super Duper's...
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Unread post30 Jan 2019, 18:02

Yes, one way to compare Typhie vs Panther is to let them go head to head, mano-a-mano. A better way, IMO, is to pick some dollar (or euro) figure. Say $500M or $1B or $2B (more?) and figure out how many aircraft of each that monetary figure buys. Then either have X Typhies fight Y Panthers in a Red Flag type scenario and see who comes out on top. A better comparison, though, would be to assign missions to X Typhies and Y Panthers and score them each on how well they complete the assigned (Red Flag type) mission(s), because, with the possible exception of some Middle Eastern air forces, the chances of Typhies and Panthers ever going head to head is somewhere between slim and none.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post30 Jan 2019, 18:19

Well heres my take on this.

We can fall into the F-22 vs F-35 rabbit hole quick here, I believe the Raptor is a better air to air machine. But hey, for this argument lets say they are exactly equal in A-A.

If the Typhoon and Rafale were able to survive numerous exercises with the F-22 without totally humiliating themselves publicly, (infact they even got some good publicity with the whole "Raptor Salad" nonsense) then I think they'll just retain the same public image when they start dueling with F-35s.

But here is where it gets interesting, if France, Germany and other owners of the Typhoon/Rafale start getting a bit too interested in buying the F-35, then it gives us a clue on what must be going on behind closed doors.

The F-35 also had an outstanding 20:1 kill ratio in RedFlag 17-1, I think they were against F-15s and F-16s with all kinds of support and pods. Thats certainly formidable but I think the latest Typhoon and Rafale trenches would still make them look minuscule by comparison.

I have no doubt F-35s will kick some Typhoon/Rafale butt, however I won't be surprised if the kill ratio is just around 6:1 or something. Didn't the Raptor have a single kill, zero losses and 6 mutual kill scenario against the Rafale once, or something like that?
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Unread post30 Jan 2019, 18:31

zero-one wrote:
I have no doubt F-35s will kick some Typhoon/Rafale butt, however I won't be surprised if the kill ratio is just around 6:1 or something. Didn't the Raptor have a single kill, zero losses and 6 mutual kill scenario against the Rafale once, or something like that?


What were the ROE for the exercise you cite? ROE's matter (just a little, anyway).

Haven't we been over this, again and again? In today's environment with HOBS missiles and HMDS, WVR is pretty lethal to anybody?
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post30 Jan 2019, 19:11

steve2267 wrote:
Haven't we been over this, again and again? In today's environment with HOBS missiles and HMDS, WVR is pretty lethal to anybody?


Yes but again my answer to that is, the lethality of HOBS is not equal for everyone.
A single Raptor not only survived but slaughtered 8 F-15s all armed with 9X and JHMCS
https://fightersweep.com/2526/helmet-mo ... -the-f-22/

I know some of you may still find that link hard to believe but there is a very long thread where that has been discussed already. In the end, former Raptor pilot Tailgate did confirm that the F-22 does make it difficult even for advanced IR seekers to lock on. Weather it does it through IR stealth, super maneuverability, less reliance on AB in ACM, a combination of all of those and more was not specified.

Bottom line is, as long as the Rafale and Typhoon is in service with allies, Airforces will keep things professional and will go with politically correct statements like "Both aircraft compliment each other nicely" or "The learning experience was priceless" It won't be until both types are close to retirement when we will get all the stories of how Typhoons were actually mauled by Raptors.
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Unread post30 Jan 2019, 19:44

zero-one wrote:Yes but again my answer to that is, the lethality of HOBS is not equal for everyone.
A single Raptor not only survived but slaughtered 8 F-15s all armed with 9X and JHMCS
https://fightersweep.com/2526/helmet-mo ... -the-f-22/


I reserve judgement of "8 eagles slaughtered" vs "1 Raptor victory, no losses, and 6 mutual kills against Typhies / Rafales" without knowing the ROE's of the various engagements.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post30 Jan 2019, 19:55

Well, we already know the Rafale story was WVR only, while the Eagle story started BVR and ended WVR.
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Unread post30 Jan 2019, 20:06

f4u7_corsair wrote:Considering your laughable knowledge/assessment (assuming you're of bad faith) of French aircraft, I'm not surprised you consider any argument opposing these to their American counterparts, and especially on the Rafale vs. F-35 case, as "fanboyism".


Well, I guess that I could say the same about you about your assessment regarding the F-35 and you having a "bad faith" about non-French aircraft.
Anyway, at least I make arguments and cases that supports the FACT (independently if you like it or not!) that the Rafale doesn't stand a chance against the F-35, neither against the F-22 and even against the J-20 it will hardly have a chance, reasons that IMO clearly puts the Rafale in the obsolete category and this also applies equally to the Typhoon, the Gripen or the Super Hornet and so on... So as you can see, I have nothing against the French aircraft in particular. I can even agree or believe that the Rafale could be (or has a good chance of being) the "best" 4.5 gen fighter aircraft and this opposes your accusations of trying to place me as being some "Anti-French" dude but in the end this doesn't surprise me a bit knowing your history of posts here that clearly puts you as being a French "fanatic fanboy" :roll:

But the sad fact (about the Rafale) is that being potentially the best among obsolete aircraft doesn't make the aircraft any less obsolete.

f4u7_corsair wrote:I think you should also open a dictionary, look up the definition of "obsolete", and reevaluate your judgement.


Sorry but an aircraft that doesn't stand much of a chance against the current best aircraft (F-35, F-22 and likely the J-20) or even against the best Air Defense Systems fielded today (S-400 for example) is obsolete I'm afraid or at best starting to get obsolete, or why the heck do you think that your French military/politicians are trying to pull out that FCAS/S-Whatever...?? :roll:

f4u7_corsair wrote:But It's a moot point judging from the previous arguments you've made, so I rest my case here.


What "case this you rest" may I ask?? I haven't seen any actual arguments from your part except you accusing me of being "Anti-French". But yeah, I guess that now it's my turn to say: I rest my case. :roll:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post30 Jan 2019, 20:19

zero-one wrote:I have no doubt F-35s will kick some Typhoon/Rafale butt, however I won't be surprised if the kill ratio is just around 6:1 or something. Didn't the Raptor have a single kill, zero losses and 6 mutual kill scenario against the Rafale once, or something like that?


As others have already said, that F-22 versus Rafale engagement was WVR only with both aircraft being very close (again Within Visual Range), so the biggest advantage of the F-22 (and other 5th gen fighter aircraft like the F-35) over 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft which is Stealth combined with BVR was basically and completely nullified in that same "engagement".

This engagement/mock combat would be akin to someone back in 1939 putting a Spitfire against a Gloster Gladiator in a dogfight but with the rules that the Spitfire could never surpass the Gladiator's maximum speed and acceleration rates during that same dogfight/combat.
Would this mean that back in 1939 the Gloster Gladiator wasn't already obsolete?

Regarding the F-35 and dogfight, I believe that many here are forgetting about DAS. That IMO is a real gamechanger when it comes to dogfight/WVR engagements since these are usually NOT won by the pilot which has the aircraft with the best agility (which the F-35 has plenty of it) but instead by the pilot which has the best Situational Awareness (SA) and DAS gives the (F-35) a level of SA that simply NO other aircraft can match.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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