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Re: F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 28 Jan 2019, 13:54
by element1loop
f4u7_corsair wrote:
if Germany became an F-35 operator, “cooperation on all combat aircraft issues with France will die.”
Pretty much, and that's someone Germany has to keep in mind if it does not want to see both European sovereign defence policies and German military industry doomed to oblivion.


:mrgreen:

Re: F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 28 Jan 2019, 14:07
by marsavian
f4u7_corsair wrote:
if Germany became an F-35 operator, “cooperation on all combat aircraft issues with France will die.”

Pretty much, and that's someone Germany has to keep in mind if it does not want to see both European sovereign defence policies and German military industry doomed to oblivion.


France tried this bullying stunt before and it failed miserably with them building Rafale alone. Germany will just join the UK in building Eurofighter 2 aka Tempest if the French try any of this stupid nationalistic nonsense, it's a better more natural fit anyway.

Re: F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 28 Jan 2019, 14:25
by f4u7_corsair
Because both UK and Germany totally have realistic means and fundings to partitipate both in JSF and Tempest programs, right?

And we saw what was the outcome between Rafale and Typhoon, the most complete combat aircraft being undoubtedly the former.

Re: F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 28 Jan 2019, 14:31
by marsavian
The outcome was that the Eurofighter exceeded Rafale sales both for partner and export customers by several factors. If you are feeling lucky you should try that nationalistic BS on the Germans again and see where it gets you.

Re: F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 28 Jan 2019, 14:40
by vilters
Typical European political nonsense. => Each country sponsoring and promoting his OWN industry.

Europe is a collection of egocentric individuals.

And by the way, Rafale and Tiffy are obsolete to say the least.
None has heard about stealth, and in 2019 you don't cut the butter with a fancy sales pitch.

None would have survived without political sponsoring.

Re: F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 28 Jan 2019, 14:41
by f4u7_corsair
Of course you produce more aircraft with more countries included in the design process (which isn't necessarily a good thing, rather the opposite, i.e. friction and heterogeneous design choices).Export success on the other hand is just marginally better.

And by the way, Rafale and Tiffy are obsolete to say the least.

So, everything else besides F-22 and F-35 is obsolete. Thanks for reminding me on what forum I am..

Re: F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 28 Jan 2019, 21:10
by ricnunes
f4u7_corsair wrote:So, everything else besides F-22 and F-35 is obsolete.


So finally you got it. Yes, that's it!

While you're clearly being sarcastic here, the funny thing here is that this is the most accurate statement that you'll probably ever posted about military aviation.

BTW, the only other fighter aircraft besides the F-22 and F-35 which isn't obsolete is the J-20 and even then it is still quite far from the F-22 and F-35 capabilities.

f4u7_corsair wrote:Thanks for reminding me on what forum I am..


Let me tell you what this forum isn't about: It isn't about French fanboys and the "promotion at all costs" of French aircraft/equipment.
But I'm sure that this you already know, so the question is: what the heck are you doing here if you have a such low regard about this same forum??

Re: F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 28 Jan 2019, 21:21
by f4u7_corsair
Considering your laughable knowledge/assessment (assuming you're of bad faith) of French aircraft, I'm not surprised you consider any argument opposing these to their American counterparts, and especially on the Rafale vs. F-35 case, as "fanboyism".

I think you should also open a dictionary, look up the definition of "obsolete", and reevaluate your judgement.
But It's a moot point judging from the previous arguments you've made, so I rest my case here.

Re: F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2019, 01:44
by Corsair1963
Dirk Hoke, CEO of Airbus Defense and Space, warned last year told a German newspaper that if Germany became an F-35 operator, “cooperation on all combat aircraft issues with France will die.”



The NGF being developed by France and Germany is at the very early stages. Which, means it would be 20 years or more before it ever enters service. So, any order for F-35's to replace the Luftwaffe's Tornado Fleet. Would have no effect on the deal.


In short it's an idle threat...... :?

Re: F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2019, 13:48
by zero-one
Obsolete is far too strong of a word to use for the Typhoon and Rafale. And I'm saying this as one of the biggest F-22 and F-35 fanboys out there.

To be obsolete is to be completely ineffective in today's environment. Is the Typhoon\Rafale totally ineffective? No, they are less effective and will have a harder time in specific missions but certainly not obsolete.

Lets look at some missions and see how the Euro Canards do against them.

Air to air. The toughest opponent the they may face is the J-20, but with such small numbers and without any relevant info on them it will be irrelevant for us to discuss them. So we jump with the toughest "relevant" threat which are advanced Flanker variants.

Both the Typhoon and Rafale have better sensors and better "stealth" (Lower RCS and visual signature, possibly lower IR as well) than any Flanker variant. Their Sensors are also more advanced with true sensor fusion and ECM suits that are possibly almost as good as the F-22\35s.

The ace up their sleeve is definitely the Meteor missile which I consider to be the best BVR round available. the F-22 and F-35 can afford to be without it since they have the ability to move closer to the targets and launch closer to the NEZ parameters.

In combat configurations their speed and maneuverability will be less than the 5th gens but IRIS-T, Aim-132 with HMCS should minimize those disadvantages to a degree, at least offensively, defensive maneuvering is another matter altogether.

Air to Ground
Against their toughest assignment which I think will be to destroy targets inside an IADS protected area, they can rely on their impressive sensor suits which I think is close to 5th gen levels. Then they'll need to rely on long range standoff weapons like the storm shadow.

I believe the Typhoon/Rafale and to a degree the Gripen can still operate effectively in today's environment. not as effectively as the F-22/35 but certainly not obsolete

Re: F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2019, 13:59
by madrat
Only about 5% of the earth's surface will be protected by IADS that threaten 4th generation fighters let alone 5th.

Most airspace worldwide is permissive to overflight and requires fighters to protect. Against other fighters the Typhoon and Rafale compare favorably to all except maybe several hundred at this point, the vast majority of which lay in the hands of benevolent parties.

Re: F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2019, 20:45
by optimist
f4u7_corsair wrote:Of course you produce more aircraft with more countries included in the design process (which isn't necessarily a good thing, rather the opposite, i.e. friction and heterogeneous design choices).Export success on the other hand is just marginally better.

And by the way, Rafale and Tiffy are obsolete to say the least.

So, everything else besides F-22 and F-35 is obsolete. Thanks for reminding me on what forum I am..

If not obsolete, you need a larger fleet that that of 5th gen. With a LER, loss exchange ratio of 100:1 on the f-22 and currently 20:1 on the f-35. It gets expensive to put 4th gen in to the air.

Re: F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2019, 21:13
by sprstdlyscottsmn
20:1 on strike configured F-35s tasked to hang out in the AO after deploying their weapons to give everyone else intel.

Re: F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2019, 22:04
by n3sk
f-35v E2000- 1v1- F -35 uses its superior everything to avoid the typhoon until it goes bingo fuel and lands... suddenly it begins to rain mini JDAMS

It’s a strike fighter, not a2a.

Re: F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

Unread postPosted: 29 Jan 2019, 22:14
by SpudmanWP
For all but the US, UK, and Italy the F-35 is going to be their premier A2A fighter. I think it will be very telling when UK/Italian F-35s start to train with their Eurofighters and we start to hear "whispers" from the F-35 pilots on the carnage that ensued.