F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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ricnunes

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Unread post06 Jan 2019, 00:54

steve2267 wrote:Typhie stands about as much chance against a Lightning as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.


DITTO!

If you don't mind, I'll use a modified version of this post of your as my signature. Is that ok with you? :wink:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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steve2267

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Unread post06 Jan 2019, 01:14

Sure, i’ve already “baked” my sig...
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post06 Jan 2019, 01:21

Jeepers STEVO what about the F-18s! Pedal/Falling WEAPS and Hi! AoA ACME Goodness seen in anuvver thread. beepbeep
Last edited by spazsinbad on 06 Jan 2019, 01:23, edited 1 time in total.
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steve2267

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Unread post06 Jan 2019, 01:22

But be forewarned... somebody is sure to start arguing about a .50cal Sabre vs a 20mm Sabre... :doh:
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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steve2267

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Unread post06 Jan 2019, 01:28

spazsinbad wrote:Jeepers STEVO what about the F-18s! Pedal/Falling WEAPS and all that ACME Goodness seen in anuvver thread. beepbeep


Spaz... what going on about? My Sabre comparison, or my signature? Only so many words fit ina sig... to have used the Bug, principally a nasal radiator bird, I’da have used a guns-only (or maybe guns & rockets only) Panther, eh wot? Boop boop

:drool:
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post06 Jan 2019, 01:31

Please explain? I was referring to youse referring to youse signature which is just RONG. No?! Stir in STIR. Sir YES Sir!
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marsavian

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Unread post06 Jan 2019, 02:34

ricnunes wrote:
marsavian wrote:It's completely viable to believe that the Pirate could spot an F-35 at a further range than AIM-120C NEZ if not maximum range.


No, it is not!

It's funny that later on you mentioned that PIRATE "may have" (note that IRST detection ranges are always a thing of "might be" since they depend on optimal factors such as weather, this as opposed to Radar) a detection range of of 74 km but that converted to nautical miles is a bit lower than 40 nautical miles. Yet on top of this, you ignore the F-35 IR reduction measures and still boost up the PIRATE IRST detection range against a F-35 at 50 miles :roll:

> 74 km is the specification given by someone who manufactured components of the sensor at initial release, software updates have increased this since. Rand state 50nm as do other sources. Meanwhile your sources are what exactly in comparison ?

If the Typhoon managed to detect the F-35 at a range of 20-25 nautical miles when the F-35 is flying straight towards the Typhoon and subsonically, you could already consider the Typhoon to be "lucky" and the AIM-120C and AIM-120D have maximum ranges much longer than that while at least the AIM-120D NEZ should be longer than that in most circumstances.
Moreover, the F-35 doesn't need to fire its AMRAAMs at their NEZ range. It can fire them somewhere between the maximum range and the NEZ range. If the Typhoon doesn't notice the incoming AMRAAM launch (which is a good probability) then it will be killed nonetheless. If the Typhoon manages to detect the incoming AMRAAM soon enough the advantage is still on the F-35's side since the Typhoon will have to go defensive (or else it DIES) and all the F-35 has to do is to close further (while the Typhoon is defensive) and shoot another AMRAAM (or even another) until the Typhoon simply dies. GAME OVER!

The most common C-5 variant only has a maximum head on range of about 60km and most AMRAAM have been launched under 40km. Actually investigate actual AMRAAM kills to realise how near to WVR they have usually been launched at. Even the later models require a cooperating non-maneuvering head-on target for their lofted trajectories to work as the extra range has been bought mainly by better avionics and software. The Meteor is a far more deadlier missile at range as it modulates its fuel burn on the way in. AMRAAMs can also be detected according to Rand

• AMRAAM launches have large, unique thermal
signature
– Could allow early detection of F-22 and
missile launch warning at up to 50+ nm
• AMRAAM at Mach 4 generates 1200 deg. F shock
cone – missile could be tracked at up to 45+ nm


The Typhoon going defensive could mean still coming forward at a cranked angle while still tracking using IRST. If both can track each other on the way in then who wins could come down to tactics and better platform kinematics and missile performance/numbers/countermeasures.


marsavian wrote:The IR reduction on the F-35 is mainly on the nozzle but any aircraft has a worse IR detection problem from the back anyway and if a Typhoon spotted an F-35 from the rear it would close it down fuel permitting.


Wrong again.
The F-35 has a bunch of other IR reduction measures such as having the engine buried in it's fuselage which shields its biggest IR source (again the engine), it can carry cooled fuel in its fuselage fuel cell (which shields its engine even further), it has the S-Duct intake which not only shields the air intakes from Radio (Radar) waves but also shields the IR source from the engine when the F-35 is flying towards an IRST.

This is a speculation but I would say that the F-35 skin material should also help against IR. Anyway, you cannot find none of the above in the Typhoon so I have absolutely NO doubt that the F-35 IR signature is a magnitude lower than the Typhoon IR signature! This means that the F-35 IRST will detect the Typhoon sooner than the Typhoon IRST even if both aircraft were flying with their radars turned off!

Order of magnitude lower ? Complete fantasy talk ! Show actual documented figures not design features. The F-35 has the most powerful fighter engine ever built with heat production to match, it needs features to get its IR signature down. In comparison the EJ200 are small tidy engines with under half the thrust.


marsavian wrote:Not will but are able to defeat. It's no accident that F-15/F-16/F-18 are all being steadily updated with IRST21 sensors which is the evolution of the original F-14 IRST and being publicly advertised as an anti-stealth feature. If a stealth aircraft is being consistently tracked by an IRST then it is in some danger, that's just physics. The hard part for the non-stealthy aircraft is surviving long enough for its IRST to have started tracking and maintaining tracking during missile journey.


You can even believe in Unicorns for all that I care :roll:
IRST won't defeat Stealth, period! The Typhoon IRST will always have a much, much and much lower range than the F-35's AESA Radar against the Typhoon.
And I'll be surprised if the PIRATE IRST can actually detect a F-35 flying straight towards the Typhoon at any range longer than for example the CAPTOR-E radar can also against the F-35.

The fact that some F-15/F-16/F-18 are being updated with IRST21 sensors - "steadily" being IMO an overstatement - This is IMO more of a marketing trend than anything else. If anything, IRST's are here in order to give a PASSIVE TRACKING ability to fighter aircraft and they are definitely NOT some "silver bullet" against Stealth!
You know that IRST are not a new technology, right?? For example, F-8 Crusaders in the 1960's had them, you know?

The USN don't agree with you. They are prepared to take a stealth, drag and maneuvering hit by putting that IRST21 sensor on a F-18 centerline fuel tank which is obviously not going to be dropped which doesn't sound like a marketing fad to me. Legion IRST21 pods are going on virtually all F-15s and a lot of F-16s. Pirate will see F-35s about 5-6 times further than Captor-E. F-35 is not a stealthy IR aircraft and WVR is easier to see than a F-16 as pilots have noted.

p.s. Sabres are great WVR dogfighters and F-35 have been virtually killed at Red Flags more than once so contrary to your very bold claims are not invulnerable or unbeatable. Air to air combat is a lot more nuanced and haphazard then you realise. The F-35 characteristics are about loading the dice in its favor but it still has to roll those dice like any other aircraft.


Last edited by marsavian on 06 Jan 2019, 03:36, edited 2 times in total.
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steve2267

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Unread post06 Jan 2019, 02:46

spazsinbad wrote:Please explain? I was referring to youse referring to youse signature which is just RONG. No?! Stir in STIR. Sir YES Sir!


I ran outta words... no room to fit an F/A-18 Bug in da signature line. A-7 for avionics prowess... F-16 cuz, well.. Viper! (and General Dynamics / Lockheed Martin heritage)... ditto F-117 & F-22... AV-8B for da killer bee... Sorry... no room for da bug!
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post06 Jan 2019, 03:06

WAS that so hard? "Take an F-16, stir in A-7, add dollop of F-117, gob of F-22; F-18+Super, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir, bake. Whaddya get? An F-35" (we doan need no stinkin' full stop)
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Unread post06 Jan 2019, 03:45

spazsinbad wrote:WAS that so hard? "Take an F-16, stir in A-7, add dollop of F-117, gob of F-22; F-18+Super, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir, bake. Whaddya get? An F-35" (we doan need no stinkin' full stop)


Too many words — too long for dis FORMS sigginature line... :bang:
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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element1loop

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Unread post06 Jan 2019, 03:48

A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 PUMA as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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Unread post06 Jan 2019, 03:56

The Mig-17 has shot down loads of supersonic aircraft supposedly of a higher generation. Biplanes have shot down monoplanes and monoplanes have shot down jet fighters in WWII. The generational gaps are not gulfs or chasms but spectrum shifts of capabilities. Go Sabre !
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Unread post06 Jan 2019, 04:19

spazsinbad wrote:WAS that so hard? "Take an F-16, stir in A-7, add dollop of F-117, gob of F-22; F-18+Super, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir, bake. Whaddya get? An F-35" (we doan need no stinkin' full stop)


Alraht ya swabbie down undah... I managed to re-work the recipe... youse gotsyer bug juice...
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post06 Jan 2019, 04:48

Good OH Stevo - Did somebody say PANTHER? THIS IS A PANTHER: https://hars.org.au/cac-ca-27-sabre/ [read da story]

https://hars.org.au/wp-content/uploads/ ... 24x576.jpg [fusel age of a Winjeel in background]
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Unread post06 Jan 2019, 05:17

It’s my meme... here, youse this Panther... even has rockitts for all da good itull douse ya...

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Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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