F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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ricnunes

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Unread post05 Jan 2019, 17:18

marsavian wrote:Any fighter aircraft with a decent IRST will stand a chance against F-35 but just not a strong one. IRST neutralize radio stealth advantage but are poor at ranging without a triangulating partner to network with. Also they tend to have smaller FOV than radar as well as being environmentally affected.


And any fighter with a decent AESA Radar will detect a non-stealth fighter aircraft like the Typhoon at MUCH LONGER RANGES than possible with any IRST.


marsavian wrote:Consider this scenario, a Typhoon spots an F-35 on Pirate heading its way over 50 miles away...


When this happens the F-35 has long detected the Typhoon with its radar way over 110 (nautical) miles away!

Moreover and together with all the IR signature reductions that the F-35 has (note that the F-35 doesn't only have radar signature reductions measures but also IR as well) it is wishful thinking to say that a Typhoon can detect a F-35 at 50 miles away.



marsavian wrote:Stealth aircraft are not invulnerable just highly advantaged in aerial combat.


And neither is the IRST the sensor which will defeat Stealth.

Bottom line, it is preposterous to think that there might be "normal" situations where the Typhoon has some parity with the F-35, if or when facing each other.

No, Stealth aircraft are not invincible but their advantage is not only "high" (as you say) but it is BRUTAL! Similar to the advantage that Jet has over Propeller.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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wrightwing

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Unread post05 Jan 2019, 17:42

marsavian wrote:
This is my point when I say that the Typhoon doesn't have a chance against the F-35 (as a "rule", and not "exception").


Any fighter aircraft with a decent IRST will stand a chance against F-35 but just not a strong one. IRST neutralize radio stealth advantage but are poor at ranging without a triangulating partner to network with. Also they tend to have smaller FOV than radar as well as being environmentally affected.

Consider this scenario, a Typhoon spots an F-35 on Pirate heading its way over 50 miles away but before the F-35 has fired an AMRAAM. It can then immediately fire a Meteor in the direction of the F-35 and accelerate straight to it. The F-35 can either choose to continue to meet the Typhoon head on firing AMRAAM or go defensive. Either way the Typhoon will know where the F-35 roughly is and try and keep it on Pirate view and if it does it can continue to send mid course updates to the Meteor. The Meteor still has the final problem of getting its radar locked on to the F-35 at the end of its chase but if mid-course guided enough that could happen and the Meteor retains its energy well. A non-stealthy aircraft would have to be totally aggressive and take chances if it ever spotted a stealthy aircraft at range because it would have to endeavour to always keep it tracked during combat because it may never find it again if it turned away.

Obviously in the real world the F-35 driver would be smart enough to vector in from the side or rear outside an IRST cone of view but that may not always be tactically possible. Stealth aircraft are not invulnerable just highly advantaged in aerial combat.


The only way a Pirate IRST would detect an F-35 at 50nm, is from the rear aspect, while the F-35 was using afterburners. Good luck getting a shot off under those conditions, even with Meteor. From a frontal aspect, under non-afterburning conditions, the Typhoon pilot would be lucky to detect an F-35 at half that distance or less.
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steve2267

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Unread post05 Jan 2019, 17:52

“Mid-course guided enough”...

Last time I checked, mid course guidance is going to need some range, no?

Pray tell, where is Typhie getting a track-quality range from?

Clouds much?

:doh:

Typhie stands about as much chance against a Lightning as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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marsavian

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Unread post05 Jan 2019, 17:55

I had already assumed that the F-35 had seen the Typhoon first but was being held back by AIM-120C range. It's completely viable to believe that the Pirate could spot an F-35 at a further range than AIM-120C NEZ if not maximum range. Of course the Typhoon would require some luck to be so fortunate to have its IRST scanning that piece of sky at the right time but it's not impossible. Of course there's always the possibility that the Typhoon DASS picked up F-35 radio antenna emissions first which would help in cueing the Pirate IRST early. The IR reduction on the F-35 is mainly on the nozzle but any aircraft has a worse IR detection problem from the back anyway and if a Typhoon spotted an F-35 from the rear it would close it down fuel permitting.

And neither is the IRST the sensor which will defeat Stealth. Bottom line, it is preposterous to think that there might be "normal" situations where the Typhoon has some parity with the F-35, if or when facing each other.


Not will but are able to defeat. It's no accident that F-15/F-16/F-18 are all being steadily updated with IRST21 sensors which is the evolution of the original F-14 IRST and being publicly advertised as an anti-stealth feature. If a stealth aircraft is being consistently tracked by an IRST then it is in some danger, that's just physics. The hard part for the non-stealthy aircraft is surviving long enough for its IRST to have started tracking and maintaining tracking during missile journey.
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marsavian

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Unread post05 Jan 2019, 18:01

steve2267 wrote:“Mid-course guided enough”...

Last time I checked, mid course guidance is going to need some range, no?

Pray tell, where is Typhie getting a track-quality range from?

Clouds much?

:doh:

Typhie stands about as much chance against a Lightning as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.


The Meteor would need constant updates as IRST ranging is poor so it would be basically following a boresight chase mode until its own radar lock but the Meteor retains energy well with its ramjet.
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Unread post05 Jan 2019, 18:07

marsavian wrote:I had already assumed that the F-35 had seen the Typhoon first but was being held back by AIM-120C range. It's completely viable to believe that the Pirate could spot an F-35 at a further range than AIM-120C NEZ if not maximum range. Of course the Typhoon would require some luck to be so fortunate to have its IRST scanning that piece of sky at the right time but it's not impossible. Of course there's always the possibility that the Typhoon DASS picked up F-35 radio antenna emissions first which would help in cueing the Pirate IRST early. The IR reduction on the F-35 is mainly on the nozzle but any aircraft has a worse IR detection problem from the back anyway and if a Typhoon spotted an F-35 from the rear it would close it down fuel permitting.




Except that it's not viable to believe that Pirate can detect an F-35 at those ranges, under front aspect/non-afterburning conditions. The IRST FOV at long ranges, is like looking through a soda straw, and that doesn't even take atmospheric conditions into consideration. As for the IRST-21 upgrade on teen series jets, as an "anti-stealth" measure, it's important to understand what that means. It doesn't mean rendering a stealthy object visible at conventional ranges.its also important to note that the Su-57/J-20 are not F-22/35s.
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marsavian

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Unread post05 Jan 2019, 18:34

Pirate is advertised as follows, the very large field of regard mode halves the range IIRC. Identification also occurs at less than detection range.

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/global/p ... srt/pirate

Very long range passive air-to-air capability.

Automatic detection and multiple target tracking, track while scan.

High angular resolution & track accuracy.

Large field of view in very large field of regard.

Identification of intercepted airborne targets


http://grupooesia.com/en/portfolio-prod ... flir-irst/

Searching, detection and tracking of air targets from very long distances (more than 74Km) to give air superiority to the Eurofighter.


http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/fil ... iefing.pdf

All Flankers carry an Infra-Red Search and Track
System (IRSTS) – existing US fighters do not
– Latest version is OLS-35
– Capable of tracking typical fighter target
head-on at 50 km (27 nm) tail on at 90 km (50
nm)
– +- 90 degree azimuth coverage
– +60 deg, - 15 deg elevation coverage
• Fighter supercruising at Mach 1.7 generates shock
cones with stagnation temperature of 188 deg. F
– Should increase detection range about 10
percent to 30 nm head-on
• AMRAAM launches have large, unique thermal
signature
– Could allow early detection of F-22 and
missile launch warning at up to 50+ nm
• AMRAAM at Mach 4 generates 1200 deg. F shock
cone – missile could be tracked at up to 45+ nm
• Advanced IRSTS integrating commercially
available Quantum Well Infrared Photodetector
(QWIP) imaging technology likely available within 5
years and will greatly increase performance
Typhoon already has one with unclassified
detection range for subsonic head-on
airborne targets of 50 nm.
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Unread post05 Jan 2019, 19:04

OLS-35 has a ~35km range (best case) against frontal aspect/non-afterburning targets. I know Pirate is superior, but it's not going to detect an F-35 at anywhere near 50nm. In previous exercises against F-22s (which aren't as stealthy as F-35s), Typhoons couldn't get within 20nm, without dying.
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Unread post05 Jan 2019, 19:05

The Pirate may very well be able to detect an F-15 or Flanker at 50nm, but that's not the same thing at all, compared to an F-35.
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marsavian

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Unread post05 Jan 2019, 19:12

I know Pirate is superior, but it's not going to detect an F-35 at anywhere near 50nm.


If you don't want to believe Rand then the Pirate component manufacturer has already stated >74km which was before the 2013 software update which increased range further. As for the 20nm dying quote that was German Typhoons *without* Pirate IRST trying to get close enough for a radar lock.
Last edited by marsavian on 05 Jan 2019, 19:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post05 Jan 2019, 19:14

marsavian wrote:If you don't want to believe Rand then the Pirate component manufacturer has already stated >74km which was before the 2013 software update which increased range further. As for 20nm quote that was German Typhoons *without* Pirate IRST trying to get close enough for a radar lock

That range figure isn't against an F-22 or F-35.
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marsavian

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Unread post05 Jan 2019, 19:22

Has the F-22/F-35 IR signature reduction ever been quantified ? They certainly don't look very discrete on commercial FLIR which have spotted them at airshows. Anyway the principle remains, advancements in IRST are the main future threat to radio stealth aircraft which of course can be countered by them acquiring even longer range missiles/IRST themselves. It's a sensor arms race out there between Stealth/Radar/IRST/RWR/EW across the generations which does tend to blur the common 4th/5th generation distinction POV.
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Unread post05 Jan 2019, 20:18

marsavian wrote:Has the F-22/F-35 IR signature reduction ever been quantified ? They certainly don't look very discrete on commercial FLIR which have spotted them at airshows. Anyway the principle remains, advancements in IRST are the main future threat to radio stealth aircraft which of course can be countered by them acquiring even longer range missiles/IRST themselves. It's a sensor arms race out there between Stealth/Radar/IRST/RWR/EW across the generations which does tend to blur the common 4th/5th generation distinction POV.


The last time I looked into thus US manufactured IR sensors (I mean the actual chips) have been at least a technology generation ahead of any capability in Europe. Whatever is coming out of Europe, the sensors that the US has on hand abd probably tested against F22/35 are better.
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Unread post05 Jan 2019, 21:48

marsavian wrote:Has the F-22/F-35 IR signature reduction ever been quantified ? They certainly don't look very discrete on commercial FLIR which have spotted them at airshows. Anyway the principle remains, advancements in IRST are the main future threat to radio stealth aircraft which of course can be countered by them acquiring even longer range missiles/IRST themselves. It's a sensor arms race out there between Stealth/Radar/IRST/RWR/EW across the generations which does tend to blur the common 4th/5th generation distinction POV.

A FLIR image from WVR of an afterburning jet, is hardly indicative of how that jet looks at 50nm, no afterburners, and all sorts of atmospheric conditions in between. Put a nice cloud in between the FLIR and the F-22, and you might not detect it at1km.
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Unread post06 Jan 2019, 00:45

marsavian wrote:It's completely viable to believe that the Pirate could spot an F-35 at a further range than AIM-120C NEZ if not maximum range.


No, it is not!

It's funny that later on you mentioned that PIRATE "may have" (note that IRST detection ranges are always a thing of "might be" since they depend on optimal factors such as weather, this as opposed to Radar) a detection range of of 74 km but that converted to nautical miles is a bit lower than 40 nautical miles. Yet on top of this, you ignore the F-35 IR reduction measures and still boost up the PIRATE IRST detection range against a F-35 at 50 miles :roll:

If the Typhoon managed to detect the F-35 at a range of 20-25 nautical miles when the F-35 is flying straight towards the Typhoon and subsonically, you could already consider the Typhoon to be "lucky" and the AIM-120C and AIM-120D have maximum ranges much longer than that while at least the AIM-120D NEZ should be longer than that in most circumstances.
Moreover, the F-35 doesn't need to fire its AMRAAMs at their NEZ range. It can fire them somewhere between the maximum range and the NEZ range. If the Typhoon doesn't notice the incoming AMRAAM launch (which is a good probability) then it will be killed nonetheless. If the Typhoon manages to detect the incoming AMRAAM soon enough the advantage is still on the F-35's side since the Typhoon will have to go defensive (or else it DIES) and all the F-35 has to do is to close further (while the Typhoon is defensive) and shoot another AMRAAM (or even another) until the Typhoon simply dies. GAME OVER!


marsavian wrote:The IR reduction on the F-35 is mainly on the nozzle but any aircraft has a worse IR detection problem from the back anyway and if a Typhoon spotted an F-35 from the rear it would close it down fuel permitting.


Wrong again.
The F-35 has a bunch of other IR reduction measures such as having the engine buried in it's fuselage which shields its biggest IR source (again the engine), it can carry cooled fuel in its fuselage fuel cell (which shields its engine even further), it has the S-Duct intake which not only shields the air intakes from Radio (Radar) waves but also shields the IR source from the engine when the F-35 is flying towards an IRST.

This is a speculation but I would say that the F-35 skin material should also help against IR. Anyway, you cannot find none of the above in the Typhoon so I have absolutely NO doubt that the F-35 IR signature is a magnitude lower than the Typhoon IR signature! This means that the F-35 IRST will detect the Typhoon sooner than the Typhoon IRST even if both aircraft were flying with their radars turned off!


marsavian wrote:Not will but are able to defeat. It's no accident that F-15/F-16/F-18 are all being steadily updated with IRST21 sensors which is the evolution of the original F-14 IRST and being publicly advertised as an anti-stealth feature. If a stealth aircraft is being consistently tracked by an IRST then it is in some danger, that's just physics. The hard part for the non-stealthy aircraft is surviving long enough for its IRST to have started tracking and maintaining tracking during missile journey.


You can even believe in Unicorns for all that I care :roll:
IRST won't defeat Stealth, period! The Typhoon IRST will always have a much, much and much lower range than the F-35's AESA Radar against the Typhoon.
And I'll be surprised if the PIRATE IRST can actually detect a F-35 flying straight towards the Typhoon at any range longer than for example the CAPTOR-E radar can also against the F-35.

The fact that some F-15/F-16/F-18 are being updated with IRST21 sensors - "steadily" being IMO an overstatement - This is IMO more of a marketing trend than anything else. If anything, IRST's are here in order to give a PASSIVE TRACKING ability to fighter aircraft and they are definitely NOT some "silver bullet" against Stealth!
You know that IRST are not a new technology, right?? For example, F-8 Crusaders in the 1960's had them, you know?
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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