F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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zero-one

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Unread post18 Mar 2018, 17:09

wil59 wrote:they have no navy, their warplanes were obsolete, no submarines, no airlifters, no nuclear tactical missiles etc etc, all these countries are not powers of the top 10


I've always said this, Iraq was no where near a peer adversary against the US or NATO, but in regional power terms, they were very very powerful.

Obsolete??? they had Mig-29s, Mig-25s, Mig-23s, Mirage F1s, Tu-22s, Su-22s, and Tu-16 Strategic bombers. Some of these are still in front line use today and Iraq had them in the 80s.

Their pilots also had one crucial advantage over most coalition pilots, actual combat experience, you can put realistic training all you want, but nothing beats actual combat. The psychological effect of knowing that others are really trying to kill you is something that no training environment can replicate.

Put to scale I would put them on par with present day Pakistan maybe, no Nukes but they did have Chemical and Biological weapons.
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ricnunes

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Unread post18 Mar 2018, 18:22

zero-one wrote:Obsolete??? they had Mig-29s, Mig-25s, Mig-23s, Mirage F1s, Tu-22s, Su-22s, and Tu-16 Strategic bombers. Some of these are still in front line use today and Iraq had them in the 80s.

Their pilots also had one crucial advantage over most coalition pilots, actual combat experience, you can put realistic training all you want, but nothing beats actual combat. The psychological effect of knowing that others are really trying to kill you is something that no training environment can replicate.


Absolutely!
That list of aircraft was certainly not obsolete in 1991.

Moreover you are also spot on about "actual combat experience" and I'll add the following to this:
- The Iraqi fighter pilots were probably the only ones which flew Soviet bloc aircraft that had actual combat experience against US aircraft, namely against one of the most advanced US aircraft at that time - the F-14 Tomcat.
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nutshell

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Unread post19 Mar 2018, 01:57

wil59 wrote:
zero-one wrote:
wil59 wrote:ok
ok with this criterion, but that does not determine the military power of a nation, and so say 4th of the world makes me laugh, if you


Nobody said they were the 4th strongest in the world, they were simply the 4th largest.

wil59 wrote:take the top 10 military power to the world every power will beat it easily and therefore say 4 power to world seems odd to me.


Can you post some links to back this up.

Just to add, Iran fought them to a stalemate, Kuwait was dispatched quickly and Saudi Arabia feared that they were next.

they have no navy, their warplanes were obsolete, no submarines, no airlifters, no nuclear tactical missiles etc etc, all these countries are not powers of the top 10



How long does it take for you to understand that size doesn't equal to power?

The Iraqi military accounted to be one of the largest in the world.
Your country, Belgium IIRC, might recruit 1 Billions severely impaired soldiers/handicapped soldiers. Altho they'd get stuck as soon as there's something to climb taller then 50cm, it would still be the biggest military in the world.

Besides, if u study a bit the conflict between Iraqi and Iran, you'd discover it was quite a well equipped and numerous army handled by total bums.
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white_lightning35

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Unread post19 Mar 2018, 03:03

Battle experience would definitely play a large part in overall strength as compared to other militaries. Plus, it's not how big your military is, it's how you use it. 8)
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loke

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Unread post28 Mar 2018, 13:46

Spain is considering F-35, SH, Typhoon to replace Hornets/Tornadoes, however the Typhoon has "preferential position" according to this story:

http://www.infodefensa.com/es/2018/03/2 ... ghter.html

The main argument for going with Typhoon and not F-35 seems to be political -- and would also lay the groundwork for joining France and Germany in developing a 5. gen fighter in the 2040 time frame.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post28 Mar 2018, 14:20

Google Translate to English: https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... qramv9W-8g
"...In any case, the general did not close the door to Lockheed Martin's F-35 and Boeing's Super Hornet . About the first one, he pointed out that it is a "great hunter that meets the requirements one hundred percent", although he recognized that the question of sustenance should be studied...."

Last time I heard some English from Spain is that they required F-35Bs to replace their Harriers some time in future so as to continue to operate from Juan Carlos 1st LHD. Where does this requirement fit in?
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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ricnunes

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Unread post28 Mar 2018, 14:47

loke wrote:Spain is considering F-35, SH, Typhoon to replace Hornets/Tornadoes, however the Typhoon has "preferential position" according to this story:

http://www.infodefensa.com/es/2018/03/2 ... ghter.html


Tornadoes?? Spain doesn't have Tornados.
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optimist

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Unread post28 Mar 2018, 14:55

Given the statement that the 3 planes meet Spain's requirement. (which I doubt) It would seem that the super hornet would be the obvious choice. They are about half the cost of the Typhoon, aren't they? This allows then to go with France and Germany for their joint 5th gen.
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marsavian

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Unread post28 Mar 2018, 15:05

They are not half the cost for foreign customers and Spain already makes the Typhoon so offsets already taken care of. SH has little chance but F-35 probably an equal one to Typhoon pitting capability vs industrial politics similar to Germany's position.
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loke

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Unread post28 Mar 2018, 19:02

ricnunes wrote:
loke wrote:Spain is considering F-35, SH, Typhoon to replace Hornets/Tornadoes, however the Typhoon has "preferential position" according to this story:

http://www.infodefensa.com/es/2018/03/2 ... ghter.html


Tornadoes?? Spain doesn't have Tornados.

LOL, probably the Spanish article was referring to the German Tornados and this was lost in (Google) Translation. Or the article was just wrong.

Anyway thanks for the correction.
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ricnunes

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Unread post02 Apr 2018, 16:32

loke wrote:
ricnunes wrote:
loke wrote:Spain is considering F-35, SH, Typhoon to replace Hornets/Tornadoes, however the Typhoon has "preferential position" according to this story:

http://www.infodefensa.com/es/2018/03/2 ... ghter.html


Tornadoes?? Spain doesn't have Tornados.

LOL, probably the Spanish article was referring to the German Tornados and this was lost in (Google) Translation. Or the article was just wrong.


Sorry for taking some time to reply but I've been on vacation and the only access to the Internet that I had was thru a smartphone and one of the things that I hate the most in my life is to type text using a touchscreen :wink:

Well, after using a bit of my "PortuSpanGlish-Fu" in order to read and understand the Spanish text of your link, my interpretation was that this was indeed something "lost in the translation" due IMO to a somehow "sloppy" typing by the article's author.
The relevant part says:
Las fuerzas aéreas de ambos países deben reemplazar sus Tornado y F-18 en el horizonte de 2025-2030


The translation to English could (using my "PortuSpanGlish-Fu") is something like:
The Air Forces of both countries should replace their Tornado and F-18 around the 2025-2030 timeframe


This comes after the same article mentions an hypothetical (I say again, hypothetical) agreement between Germany and Spain which if it ever happens that would mean that both Germany and Spain would order their Typhoons together in a single/combined batch/order. The German Typhoons of this batch would then replace the Tornados while the Spanish Typhoons on this same batch would then replace the F/A-18s.
This is my interpretation of what's written in that article. IMO that part of the article should be written (translated to English) in the following way:
The Air Forces of Germany and Spain should replace their Tornado and F/A-18 respectively around the 2025-2030 timeframe

But again, this is my interpretation.

Also by reading "between the lines" of that same article, it's very uncertain that the Typhoon could end up being the "preferred choice". My interpretation from reading that article is that the choices for Spain are:
- F-35
- Super Hornet
- Typhoon - Although this option is claimed by the article to be the "preferred one", it's also claimed by the same article to be a somehow "conditional option" which means that a Spanish Typhoon order would be done together with a German order. Or resuming, it seems to be by far the most "politically dependent" and also the most dependent on "other external factors" such as Germany ordering (or wanting to order) the Typhoon together and at the "same time" as Spain, this from all these three options. If this ends up being a good or a bad thing for the Typhoon, one can only guess.


loke wrote:Anyway thanks for the correction.


You're welcome.
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count_to_10

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Unread post27 Apr 2018, 02:55

Has anyone posted this one?
https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... in-berlin/

“Stealth is only 10 percent of the capability mix,” Eurofighter marketing chief Raffael Klaschke told Defense News on Wednesday. “We’re still better at the other 90 percent,” he argued, referring to the aircraft’s combat capabilities.

:doh:
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Unread post27 Apr 2018, 06:48

Customers seem to disagree with Eurofighter marketing chief... :P

Like Italy who uses both Eurofighter and F-35:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28191&p=305710&hilit=Preziosa#p305710

For Italy, the Eurofighter mustl be modified to work more effectively with the F-35. The payload evolution of the Eurofighter is significant, and weapons modernization will support both the F-35 and the Eurofighter in providing new tools for air operations.

“There is nothing static in airpower; there is always a fluid dynamic, and the F-35 provides a benchmark for now for air power excellence and for several decades moving ahead we will leverage the decision tools and multi-tasking capabilities of the F-35 as well add capabilities to our Air Forces,” the general said.
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kimjongnumbaun

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Unread post27 Apr 2018, 08:37

count_to_10 wrote:Has anyone posted this one?
https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... in-berlin/

“Stealth is only 10 percent of the capability mix,” Eurofighter marketing chief Raffael Klaschke told Defense News on Wednesday. “We’re still better at the other 90 percent,” he argued, referring to the aircraft’s combat capabilities.

:doh:


Good luck getting anyone to believe that marketing. The AESA radar for the EF was supposed to come out when?
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mk82

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Unread post27 Apr 2018, 11:32

count_to_10 wrote:Has anyone posted this one?
https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... in-berlin/

“Stealth is only 10 percent of the capability mix,” Eurofighter marketing chief Raffael Klaschke told Defense News on Wednesday. “We’re still better at the other 90 percent,” he argued, referring to the aircraft’s combat capabilities.

:doh:


I guess the other 90 percent is bullsh*t marketing itself lol! Ahh Eurofighter marketing is indeed comedy gold!

P.S Could the other 90% mean the likelihood of getting shot down lol! No stealth = bullet/missile magnet PERIOD
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