F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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optimist

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Unread post12 Dec 2017, 01:46

The rafale would have 360 esm, whether it will recognise or even see the emissions above the noise, is another story.
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Unread post12 Dec 2017, 03:02

The Rafale's ESM would not likely make a difference for several reasons:

1. EOTS can use its laser rangefinder (LRF) to at least 20 nmi.
2. EOTS can triangulate with other F-35s without the need to use the LRF or for ranges beyond the LRF.
3. F-35's APG-81, even if used, would only need a very short chirp, in LPI mode, to get a range to the target.
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Unread post12 Dec 2017, 03:46

Noted on the “at least” but I would guess laser designation can exceed 35nm since that is already the capability on the current pods....although I am not sure US AAMs are SALH but I suppose that’s what sensor fusion is suppose to achieve. Don’t tell the Indians though. To them, the Rafale is the best fighter ever built... once they have bought it.

Spectra on the Rafale does have laser warning. The French do have access to the Amraam and Meteor which means they would have developed some ways to counter it if push comes to shove. That’s probably the selling point to the IAF. The USAF should develop a better AAM than the AIM-120D.
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Unread post12 Dec 2017, 04:17

"The French do have access to the Amraam"

I don't think so, The term, hell will freeze over comes to mind.
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gta4

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Unread post12 Dec 2017, 09:41

well, I would like to hear more about f22 vs rafale. Very interesting. I remeber french magazines claim there were draw games mostly?
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gta4

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Unread post12 Dec 2017, 09:47

Can someone tell me if laser warning is equivalent To laser range finder? If not, I Can claim that rafale lacks ranging capabilty against rear hemisphere aircrafts.
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Unread post12 Dec 2017, 09:48

gta4 wrote:well, I would like to hear more about f22 vs rafale. Very interesting. I remeber french magazines claim there were draw games mostly?

Groundhog Day. :doh:
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eloise

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Unread post12 Dec 2017, 10:06

gta4 wrote:Can someone tell me if laser warning is equivalent To laser range finder? If not, I Can claim that rafale lacks ranging capabilty against rear hemisphere aircrafts.

Laser warning receiver is like radar warning receiver but for laser
Laser range finder is like a very simple laser radar
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ricnunes

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Unread post12 Dec 2017, 12:11

optimist wrote:The rafale would have 360 esm, whether it will recognise or even see the emissions above the noise, is another story.


I'm not sure if this sentence is a reply to the scenario that I posted in my last post but note that in order for the Rafale's ESM or any other ESM for that matter to be able to detect/recognise radar emissions, the radar on the opposing fighter must be pointing/painting at the general direction of the Rafale.
In the scenario that I envisioned would be something like this:
1- Both the F-35 and Rafale are relatively close or even further away with one being at a 9 o'clock position relative to the other (while the other being at a relative 3 o'clock position relative to the first aircraft) while at the same time both are flying towards opposing position (for example aircraft1 is flying towards heading 000 or Northbound and aircraft2 is flying 180 or Southbound). In this case none of both aircraft's radar will likely paint the other but the F-35's DAS will surely detect the other aircraft.
2- Or alternatively, both the F-35 and Rafale are relatively close or even further away with one being at a 6 o'clock position relative to the other (while the other being at a relative 6 o'clock position relative to the first aircraft) while at the same time both are flying towards opposing position (for example aircraft1 is flying towards heading 000 or Northbound and aircraft2 is flying 180 or Southbound). In this case none of both aircraft's radar will certainly paint the other but the F-35's DAS will surely detect the other aircraft.

Also note that DAS, doesn't "trigger" the opposing aircraft's ESM since it's a totally passive system.

I hope this explanation somehow clears what I previously said :wink:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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gta4

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Unread post12 Dec 2017, 12:50

Confirmed: EOTS has targeting and laser ranging capability.
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/ ... ots-pc.pdf

Can any one confirm that Rafale's laser warning system has ranging and targeting capability?

If not, it's safe to claim F-35 could SOLO 2 Rafales with ease.
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optimist

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Unread post12 Dec 2017, 12:52

ricnunes, even in the frontal hemisphere, will the rafale recognise or even see the emissions in the noise?
If it does, the US has wasted a lot of money. Think of it like your cell phone. you can hear the person you're talking to, It seems like a constant transmission, you hear every word without breaks. You can't hear the other callers on the tower. Your call is encoded. If you heard all the calls on the tower, it would just be a garbled noise, without any words or data. The rafale is getting all the omnidirectional noise and has to try and work out what's what. Good luck with that.

GTA4, it doesn't, it's only receive. to get range it has to transmit and receive to get the time lag
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Unread post12 Dec 2017, 15:40

1) Laser warning receiver cannot measure range, but Rafale is equipped with FSO (which is quite similar to EOTS for most parts) so it also has a LRF (laser range finder)like F-35.

2) In a realistic scenario, there will be more than a single F-35 flying. Typically 4-10 F-35 at the very least against similar number of opponents. Even the most modern ESM system can only detect target that transmitting. So a single F-35 can have its radar on and share information with others allies F-35 via MADL. Thus, in worst case, still only 1 F-35 is detected by Rafale's ESM, whereas all Rafale will be visible to all F-35 (because they aren't VLO)

3) Geolocation by passive ELINT systems is significantly inferior to geolocation by Radar (active system) not only in bearing/ranging accuracy but also in the amount time needed to generate a firing solution.

4) Currently, active radar guided air to air missiles such as Meteor, AIM-120D still out performing Infrared guided air to air missiles such as MICA in terms of kinematic range and velocity. And, it come at no surprise that these small radar seekers will have trouble detect and lock in a VLO aircraft. F-35's RCS is around 20 dB lower than Rafale, for the sake of argument let say they have similar ECM sophistication, a missile that can burn through jamming and lock in Rafale at 10 km away can only do the same things against F-35 from 1 km.
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Unread post12 Dec 2017, 16:39

gta4 wrote:Can any one confirm that Rafale's laser warning system has ranging and targeting capability?


It does not as that's impossible to do.
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ricnunes

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Unread post12 Dec 2017, 18:13

optimist wrote:ricnunes, even in the frontal hemisphere, will the rafale recognise or even see the emissions in the noise?


From what I've been reading, I doubt it.
And even if it "sees some of the emissions" it's seem very unlikely that it will be able to recognise which or what emissions are those. Afterall the APG-81 is a LPI radar. If my memory doesn't fail me the APG-81 can detect the F-22's APG-77 radar emissions but that's about the only radar to be able to achieve this, which is not surprising since:
1- The APG-81 is based on the APG-77.
2- The APG-81 is more advanced (than the APG-77).

Anyway and my point was, if the radar isn't sending emissions towards the EW suite's general direction, either that because the radar is pointing/emitting into a different direction or simply because the radar isn't emitting than the EW suite won't be able to detect the radar's emissions, that's for sure :wink:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post12 Dec 2017, 21:47

From an EADS Typhoon capability pdf from about a decade ago I noticed two slides that might add to our recent discussion where the term 'very low frontal RCS signature' was used as well as a raw radar scattergraph.

http://tmor.rafale.free.fr/Eurofighter_Capability.pdf

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