F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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shania

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Unread post17 Jun 2017, 13:47

euromaster wrote:
Here are some sources that are quite interesting concerning stealth and infrared;

http://theboresight.blogspot.co.uk/2009 ... sonic.html



I am very much interest what others think about Obrescia blog, I have lengthy discussion with him on aciq and I thing he is very very far from credible source.
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Unread post17 Jun 2017, 14:32

euromaster wrote:
6 AIM-120 internally


Mind sourcing me that? I keep finding only space for 4, also any sources on AIM-9X being internally mounted?


download/file.php?id=11261&t=1

Though not yet, there are plans to modify the internal weapon bay to allow for 6 internal AAMs
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Unread post17 Jun 2017, 16:38

euromaster wrote:I know but nothing can change the fact that at supersonic speeds the frictional heat of any aircraft sticks out like a sore thumb at high altitudes, your document covers that. Try as they may, they can only reduce certain heat emitting fixtures but cannot of course control frictional heat, alas the worry for all fast moving objects in low temperatures (high altitudes especially) :D

You can't eliminate IR radiation but you can reduce them, the main source of IR radiation is actually exhaust plumes not body heat. Nevertheless, F-35 has various IR reduction features that Eurofighter doesn't, so f-35 will be much less vulnerable to IRST




euromaster wrote:Absolutely, but surely if your too much lower than your opponents aircraft, assuming you knew where it was to begin with and its altitude the width/area your IRST is going to want to be looking at the allude of the target plane. Also most aircraft are going to want to get as high as they can to employ their weapons to pus the envelope of their weapon capabilities.

F-35 doesn't have to fly much lower, as long as it fly even a bit lower, Eurofighter's IRTS will look at the F-35 within surface backgrounds while F-35's IRST will look at Eurofighter within Sky background, since infrared radiation from surface is much higher, it will be much easier for F-35 to detect the Eurofighter than the other way around. The higher speed and lack of thermal control method on Eurofighter will make this even worse. Also, flying higher mean you are flying in thinner air, which mean it would be much harder to maneuverable and evade missiles.


euromaster wrote:Mind sourcing me that? I keep finding only space for 4, also any sources on AIM-9X being internally mounted?

http://bit.ly/2te96Nu
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Unread post17 Jun 2017, 16:56

euromaster wrote:I found these interesting;
http://theboresight.blogspot.co.uk/2009 ... c.html?m=1

I haven't read all apart from the last one but there are various misleading information
1) he compare an SR-71 flying at mach 3 with an F-22 flying at mach 1.7 ??? what kind of stupid comparison is that???? the temperature will be extremely different


2) while what he said about aerodynamic heating is correct ( yes they exist ) what he talk about aircraft unable to hide is completely wrong , there are load of stuff that will absorb infrared radiation , cloud is an example
.Secondly, passive sensor such as Infrared sensor lack capabilities to measures range and velocity by themselves and have to rely on LRF to generate firing solution , LRF has very short range , for example the one on OLS-35 can reach merely 20 km
Image

3)
Target RCS (Radar Cross Section) [below] is determined by 1) the power transmitted in the direction of the target. 2) The amount of power that impacts the target and is reflected back in the direction of the radar. 3) The amount of reflected power that is intercepted by the radar antenna. 4) The length of time in which the radar is pointed at the target

Radar cross section is the measure of a target’s ability to reflect radar signals in the direction of the radar receiver. In others words, it is a measure of the ratio of backscatter power per steradian (unit solid angle) in the direction of the radar (from the target) to the power density that is intercepted by the target , it has nothing to do with the radar time on target, increasing dwell time ( related to pulse length ) will increase the power of the reflection but the trade of is the range resolution will be horrendously bad
Image

Secondly ,while high PRF can also improve capability of radar to detect target with low RCS, for unambiguous range measurements, no more than one pulse should be received from the target for each pulse transmitted by the radar. So there is a limit to how high PRF you could go. And the maximum detection range performance value that you often see is already taken in velocity search ( maximum PRF possible ) , so no more range improvement here.


4)
The weapon then dives down (using kinetic energy) to kill the target. The target profile presented to the AIM-54 is - the top of the target - not head-on. The top (stealthy or otherwise) provides the largestpossible target: surface area, physical size, and RCS aspect. F-14D (Infrared+radar) targeting in this way, with Phoenix alone - would have presented an unacceptable DACT (Dissimilar Air Combat Training) hazard for the new USAF F-22 Raptor.

firstly , all BVR missiles use a ballistic arc and lead intercept to extend range , AIM-54 isnt the only one
secondly , even though missiles can climb to higher altitude , the angular seperation is really insignificant , especially at long range. Moreover , how can the F-14 get the firing solution in the first place ? AAS-42 doesnt have a LRF device , and good luck lock on the F-22 with the APG-71 really.

5)
F-22A 'Pitot' tube is clearly visible at the nose. The Raptor has one tube on either side. These air measurement devices are electrically heated to ~ 270 C (520 F) to keep them from icing at altitude. Indeed, they appear as two hot spots on the nose under FLIR

i find it ridiculous that he cant understand that size is a big factor in detection

6)
The IRST might also use its own stored 'Atmospheric Propagation Model' to effectively “make an educated guess” as to target(s) relative range, aspect, and velocity – without the radar or laser rangefinder. In effect, the sensors own performance is characterized to construct a sensitivity model against known objects at known distances and velocities. Then during wartime when IRST sees something - it compares its own “known” internal Atmospheric Propagation Model - and the weapons system then extrapolates target range and bearing.

To create such model you will need to know the exact speed altitude of target , and the exact atmospheric condition of that day ,as soon as the target doesnt fly at a fixed speed , altitude and the attmospheric condition change alittle bit then the accuracy for your guesstimate go out of window

7)
John C. Mather, Senior Astrophysicist at the Goddard Space Flight Center, Mars Society, University of Maryland 31-July, 2009; during his remarks on Doppler (red/blue) shift detection resolution-granularity in discussing astrophysics of celestial objects: “…we are able to see the velocity of a star down to one (1) meter per second.”
Advanced Flanker IRST Doppler-shift sensitivity will not require the granularity of astrophysics because an F-22 Raptor traveling at Mach 1.1 will be moving at approximately 374 meters per second. By including air combat closure rates - this figure is even higher (!)
This would seem to fall well within, the definition of militarily useful sensitivity?

I think he don't know the different between visual light , infrared light and common radio frequency used in radar .While they are all electromagnetic wave , their frequency are very different , infrared radiation for example has much much higher frequency ( shorter wavelength ) compared to radio frequency , so the doppler effect on them are much harder to observed , you pretty much need astronomical speed to be able to see the effect . Doppler effect can be used by radar to determine aircraft speed because the radar know exact frequency that it transmitted. whereas , you cant know the exact frequency of the infrared radiation that was radiated from adversary aircraft,because this frequency will change along with aircraft speed , altitude , moitures , ambient temperature ..etc none of these are constant , and not to mention the fact that the change is extremely small , you can see how impractical it is to use red/blue shift on IRST , they dont just put LRF on thermal system for fun.

8)
Conceptually one can act on a - 'False-Positive' - even if stealth is 100% effective in the radio spectrum:

a) IRST picks something up.
b) Point your radar at it.
c) No (or strange) radar return? = stealth.
d) We don't have stealth.
e) Select R-27T-R-77 class IR weapon - 'Fox!’

So he want to launch a missiles with out getting firing solution ( no target altitude , no aspect angle , no velocity , no distance to target , no loft angle ) , yep , say good bye to lead intercept and ballistics arcs , and good luck hiting anything from BVR with that method.
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Unread post17 Jun 2017, 18:53

@eloise: you can discount everything this guy has to say just based on his trying to compare this
Image
and this
Image
How can one be so stupid?!?!?!
Is it so hard to understand that an IR observatory is just not comparable to an IRST in any way? Or that at 40k ft , most of the atmosphere is already below you?Image

Oh, and remember the news from February this year when apparently there was a "dogfight" between a Su-27 and F-16 at Groom Lake?
His comment was:
We are not sure what the Americans think they are going to learn. The Sukhoi has better acceleration, rate-of-climb, deceleration, transonic handling, better low-speed and post-stall handling and (far) better combat persistence (unrefueled endurance) than all Western fighters. The Sukhoi simply enters a climbing combat-turn....and in a few moments...its all over. The F-22A may have a higher horizontal sustained turn rate, however, this remains unclear.

Wow. Just wow.
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Unread post18 Jun 2017, 03:21

juretrn wrote:@eloise: you can discount everything this guy has to say just based on his trying to compare this
Image
and this
Image

He probably will argue that stars are much further away while at the same time ignore that they also put out much more radiation than aircraft
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Unread post19 Jun 2017, 08:57

eloise wrote:


F-35 has various IR reduction features that Eurofighter doesn't, so f-35 will be much less vulnerable to IRST


You would think so, especially if the Euro is higher and faster but then again, if the F-35 is lower its larger surface areas from the top are clearer, and arguably so will its exhaust plumes than if it was in a stronger position level with the Typhoon. Course, do not forget until it has SIdewinder or ASRAAm the F-35 is stuck with its radar guided weapons so at some point, either the aircraft or the missile (probably both) will have to bathe the Typhoon in radiation.

Also in the same way the F-35 has IR reduction features, bear in mind the Typhoon despite not being a dedicated stealth aircraft is smaller physically and has stealth features itself. I would be skeptical saying the F-35's IR reduction at high altitude and its relatively hot frame against -40 or -50 outside temperatures (Despite your disagreements with the article, it does point out that interesting factor of the hot measurement devices under the nose of the aircraft which I had not had in mind before) vs the PIRATE sensors of the Typhoon. I would of course also be skeptical of how much closer the later F-series planes (F-35 and F-22) would have to be to detect a Typhoon in regards to its stealth characteristics.

F-35 doesn't have to fly much lower, as long as it fly even a bit lower, Eurofighter's IRTS will look at the F-35 within surface backgrounds while F-35's IRST will look at Eurofighter within Sky background, since infrared radiation from surface is much higher, it will be much easier


Do you mind sourcing me something for this? Especially at higher altitudes? See in my mind if they are at high altitudes surely the cold cover will be below the F-35, making it clear as day with all the above pointed out, especially if moving at speeds and its exhaust plumes and what not will be clearer from above of course than if it was from the front. Meanwhile, above the clouds the F-35 may well be looking into the sun if its day. I suspect at such alttiudes both will be able to detect the eachother well beyond weapon ranges with IRST.



Also, flying higher mean you are flying in thinner air, which mean it would be much harder to maneuverable and evade missiles.


Perhaps, honestly I am not sure how much of a difference it would make statistically speaking but I also would consider the fact the F-35 will be a slower aircraft trying to strike "up" at a faster, faster climbing higher alttiude aircraft which has the advances from the opposite perspective, from its higher perch would give its missiles incredible energy. In fact if I recall the supercruise alone of the Typhoon would boost is missile range up to 50%, how much more energy even equal armament (AMRAAM) the Typhoons weapon would have with that combined with it shooting "down" on the F-35 is likely going to give it huge advantages at first shot, first kill, even greater if its Meteor armed vs a F-35 still shuffling along with AMRAAM.

Which brings me to a question, does AMRAAM have any decent capability at BVR, any good statistics for it able to hit even an aircraft on equal footing (other than a higher, faster one with a huge amount of defensive aids)? Some sources suggest it cannot get favorable results against even non maneuvering aircraft or helicopters.

I wonder how close the F-35 would need to get to have any chance of hitting a Typhoon in our situation given here.


Though not yet, there are plans to modify the internal weapon bay to allow for 6 internal AAMs


Yes I thought so.


So in summary so far, the F-35 struggles are against a higher flying, faster (climbing too) aircraft which will in return have vastly greater reach among other advantages from its higher perch and at least against non RAF/EU F-35's those changes will be even more severe if compared between a AMRAAM and a Meteor equipped F-35. It also has a limited weapons capability, currently it has a measly 4 missiles so any shot must be almost assured lest it risk just waiting all its armament AND giving itself away at the same time and in the future (upgraded bay) you could be still looking at armament just over half that of a typhoon.

While the [b]Typhoons struggles[/quote] are just finding the F-35 which may or not be a problem depending on altitude and heat output of the F-35. It needs not worry about any other disadvantage and although were not likely to know due to classified information even the F-35 may not detect it favorably (in regards to getting clear shots with its AMRAAM) with its radar in regards to the Typhoons own size/stealth reduction features without actively scanning and potentially giving itself away in the process.

Course if I was going to do a bit of arm chair generalling :wink: I would keep the Typhoon at altitude and if PIRATE does not find/track it by itself I would use the sensor fusion between PIRATE and captor to judge where the F-35 is likely to be even if I cannot find its actual trajectory and what have you. I would of course not keep the radar active and likely switch off any non passive systems I can live without after any limited pulse and if I am fighting an F-35 I would outfit 6 AMRAAM and 4 ASRAAM, using maybe one ASRAAM to fire into the estimated trajectory of the F-35 and using the missiles IR sensor (Like to call it the eye) to potentially get a kill if my estimation is correct.

This is all assuming the PIRATE does not find the F-35 with ease of course, at typical air to air altitudes I have no reason to suggest otherwise, I have seen enough stealth aircraft (F-22. F-35, B-2) and this is at low altitudes most of the time or at comparatively low speed, not aircraft trying to push the reach of their missiles.

Too low and slow and the low weapon load carrying F-35 could be analogized to a spear-men trying to poke up at an archer on the battlements.

I will be honest, as interesting as this discussion is, I cannot get used to the posting system. I am not always sure if my post was sent and only being able to post once per day is also quite vexing so this may be my last post here in any case.

I hope you all enjoy the discussions. Maybe I will return when CAPTOR-E and Meteor are in full swing and the F-35 is in its final/more mature block stages. Course, we may get some information in some of the exercises they will be flying together, in any case they will likely work to each-others strengths in the coming years and will be a great team against the potential threat of the SU meanace! :D

So cheerio chaps, and jolly good luck.
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Unread post21 Jun 2017, 16:34

You ASS-U-ME much.

But you write so well. Perhaps you could get a job substitute writing for Solomon when he goes on holiday?

Apologies to all, a rather long quote, but to preserve for posterity that which was written:

euromaster wrote:
eloise wrote:


F-35 has various IR reduction features that Eurofighter doesn't, so f-35 will be much less vulnerable to IRST


You would think so, especially if the Euro is higher and faster but then again, if the F-35 is lower its larger surface areas from the top are clearer, and arguably so will its exhaust plumes than if it was in a stronger position level with the Typhoon. Course, do not forget until it has SIdewinder or ASRAAm the F-35 is stuck with its radar guided weapons so at some point, either the aircraft or the missile (probably both) will have to bathe the Typhoon in radiation.

Also in the same way the F-35 has IR reduction features, bear in mind the Typhoon despite not being a dedicated stealth aircraft is smaller physically and has stealth features itself. I would be skeptical saying the F-35's IR reduction at high altitude and its relatively hot frame against -40 or -50 outside temperatures (Despite your disagreements with the article, it does point out that interesting factor of the hot measurement devices under the nose of the aircraft which I had not had in mind before) vs the PIRATE sensors of the Typhoon. I would of course also be skeptical of how much closer the later F-series planes (F-35 and F-22) would have to be to detect a Typhoon in regards to its stealth characteristics.

F-35 doesn't have to fly much lower, as long as it fly even a bit lower, Eurofighter's IRTS will look at the F-35 within surface backgrounds while F-35's IRST will look at Eurofighter within Sky background, since infrared radiation from surface is much higher, it will be much easier


Do you mind sourcing me something for this? Especially at higher altitudes? See in my mind if they are at high altitudes surely the cold cover will be below the F-35, making it clear as day with all the above pointed out, especially if moving at speeds and its exhaust plumes and what not will be clearer from above of course than if it was from the front. Meanwhile, above the clouds the F-35 may well be looking into the sun if its day. I suspect at such alttiudes both will be able to detect the eachother well beyond weapon ranges with IRST.



Also, flying higher mean you are flying in thinner air, which mean it would be much harder to maneuverable and evade missiles.


Perhaps, honestly I am not sure how much of a difference it would make statistically speaking but I also would consider the fact the F-35 will be a slower aircraft trying to strike "up" at a faster, faster climbing higher alttiude aircraft which has the advances from the opposite perspective, from its higher perch would give its missiles incredible energy. In fact if I recall the supercruise alone of the Typhoon would boost is missile range up to 50%, how much more energy even equal armament (AMRAAM) the Typhoons weapon would have with that combined with it shooting "down" on the F-35 is likely going to give it huge advantages at first shot, first kill, even greater if its Meteor armed vs a F-35 still shuffling along with AMRAAM.

Which brings me to a question, does AMRAAM have any decent capability at BVR, any good statistics for it able to hit even an aircraft on equal footing (other than a higher, faster one with a huge amount of defensive aids)? Some sources suggest it cannot get favorable results against even non maneuvering aircraft or helicopters.

I wonder how close the F-35 would need to get to have any chance of hitting a Typhoon in our situation given here.


Though not yet, there are plans to modify the internal weapon bay to allow for 6 internal AAMs


Yes I thought so.


So in summary so far, the F-35 struggles are against a higher flying, faster (climbing too) aircraft which will in return have vastly greater reach among other advantages from its higher perch and at least against non RAF/EU F-35's those changes will be even more severe if compared between a AMRAAM and a Meteor equipped F-35. It also has a limited weapons capability, currently it has a measly 4 missiles so any shot must be almost assured lest it risk just waiting all its armament AND giving itself away at the same time and in the future (upgraded bay) you could be still looking at armament just over half that of a typhoon.

While the Typhoons struggles are just finding the F-35 which may or not be a problem depending on altitude and heat output of the F-35. It needs not worry about any other disadvantage and although were not likely to know due to classified information even the F-35 may not detect it favorably (in regards to getting clear shots with its AMRAAM) with its radar in regards to the Typhoons own size/stealth reduction features without actively scanning and potentially giving itself away in the process.

Course if I was going to do a bit of arm chair generalling :wink: I would keep the Typhoon at altitude and if PIRATE does not find/track it by itself I would use the sensor fusion between PIRATE and captor to judge where the F-35 is likely to be even if I cannot find its actual trajectory and what have you. I would of course not keep the radar active and likely switch off any non passive systems I can live without after any limited pulse and if I am fighting an F-35 I would outfit 6 AMRAAM and 4 ASRAAM, using maybe one ASRAAM to fire into the estimated trajectory of the F-35 and using the missiles IR sensor (Like to call it the eye) to potentially get a kill if my estimation is correct.

This is all assuming the PIRATE does not find the F-35 with ease of course, at typical air to air altitudes I have no reason to suggest otherwise, I have seen enough stealth aircraft (F-22. F-35, B-2) and this is at low altitudes most of the time or at comparatively low speed, not aircraft trying to push the reach of their missiles.

Too low and slow and the low weapon load carrying F-35 could be analogized to a spear-men trying to poke up at an archer on the battlements.

I will be honest, as interesting as this discussion is, I cannot get used to the posting system. I am not always sure if my post was sent and only being able to post once per day is also quite vexing so this may be my last post here in any case.

I hope you all enjoy the discussions. Maybe I will return when CAPTOR-E and Meteor are in full swing and the F-35 is in its final/more mature block stages. Course, we may get some information in some of the exercises they will be flying together, in any case they will likely work to each-others strengths in the coming years and will be a great team against the potential threat of the SU meanace! :D

So cheerio chaps, and jolly good luck.


Edit: Fixed the quoting.
Last edited by steve2267 on 21 Jun 2017, 18:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post21 Jun 2017, 18:10

euromaster wrote:You would think so, especially if the Euro is higher and faster but then again, if the F-35 is lower its larger surface areas from the top are clearer, and arguably so will its exhaust plumes than if it was in a stronger position level with the Typhoon.

F-35 length is 15.67 meters
Typhoon length is 15.96 meters
F-35 wing area is 42.7 m2
Typhoon wing area is 51.2 m2
so their area are relatively the same. There is absolutely zero evidence that surface at the top will be clearer than at the bottom or vice versa. The exhaust plumes and nozzle of F-35 will actually harder to see from the top since from many angle it will be blocked by the twins stabilators. By contrast both the nozzle of Typhoon are exposed.


euromaster wrote: Course, do not forget until it has SIdewinder or ASRAAm the F-35 is stuck with its radar guided weapons so at some point, either the aircraft or the missile (probably both) will have to bathe the Typhoon in radiation.

F-35 is stealth so Typhoon have to rely on IR missiles to be assure that the missile can even follow targets while F-35 can use whatever it has. AIM-120D and Meteor both have much better kinematics than IIR missiles like ASRAAM or AIM-9X

euromaster wrote:Also in the same way the F-35 has IR reduction features, bear in mind the Typhoon despite not being a dedicated stealth aircraft is smaller physically and has stealth features itself.

Typhoon is at most 3-4% smaller than F-35 from front and could be bigger from the top while at the same time lack all the IR and RCS reduction features that F-35 has

euromaster wrote: I would be skeptical saying the F-35's IR reduction at high altitude and its relatively hot frame against -40 or -50 outside temperatures

Hot frame? nope, F-35 frame is around - 20°F at Mach 0.8 while the Typhoon supercruising at Mach 1.4 will have the surface temperature of over 83°F, never mind the lack of cooling and dedicated nozzle to reduce plumes length, the Typhoon will be much easier to detect
Image


euromaster wrote:(Despite your disagreements with the article, it does point out that interesting factor of the hot measurement devices under the nose of the aircraft which I had not had in mind before) vs the PIRATE sensors of the Typhoon.

lf you think because F-35 EOTS is under the nose mean it cant see target flying higher than it , then using the same logic PIRATE cant see target flying lower than the platform either
think about the actual situation :
let say F-35 flying at altitude of X thousands feet , Typhoon flying at Y thousand feet , if Y is so much bigger than X that Typhoon can stay out of EOTS FoV then F-35 will also stay out of PIRATE FoV , if we ignore DAS on F-35 then neither fighter can detect the other on their IRST
By Contrast , if X > Y then Typhoon will always stay within EOTS FoV and F-35 will always stay within PIRATE FoV , so once again , i dont see a single advantage of having IRST on top of the nose vs below the nose

Another thing to consider , when aircraft fly at high altitude they will have to fly at positive AoA to increased lift available , which mean their nose will pitch up , which mean at high altitude it would be alot easier for F-35 to see aircraft flying higher than it than for Typhoon to detect aircraft that fly at lower altitude

euromaster wrote: would of course also be skeptical of how much closer the later F-series planes (F-35 and F-22) would have to be to detect a Typhoon in regards to its stealth characteristics.

Not very close, Typhoon is basically same as F-18E/F in terms of RCS reduction

euromaster wrote:Do you mind sourcing me something for this? Especially at higher altitudes? See in my mind if they are at high altitudes surely the cold cover will be below the F-35, making it clear as day with all the above pointed out, especially if moving at speeds and its exhaust plumes and what not will be clearer from above of course than if it was from the front. Meanwhile, above the clouds the F-35 may well be looking into the sun if its day.

If F-35 flying at lower altitude then the background that PIRATE will look at it would either be the clouds or the ground surface or sea surface , all will be heated by solar radiation leading to them having much higher temperature than the ambient air at high altitude. When Typhoon fly at higher altitude the background that F-35 EOTS will look at it is just empty space. Look at this photo, how warms are the terrain compared to the sky?. It always much harder to detect aircraft flying at lower altitude due to the massive amounts of clutter involved.
Image
The sun is a strong source of thermal radiation but it is a point source rather than a background so any imaging infrared sensors can easily distinguish it from the real targets.

The plumes of Typhoon will be longer than F-35 since it lack serrated nozzle and the low bypass engine will have higher plume temperature than a high bypass engine

Image
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Unread post21 Jun 2017, 18:35

The EOTS can see up at about 5-10 Degrees

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Unread post21 Jun 2017, 18:38

euromaster wrote: Meanwhile, above the clouds the F-35 may well be looking into the sun if its day. I suspect at such alttiudes both will be able to detect the eachother well beyond weapon ranges with IRST.


Angular diameter of the sun is only 32 arc minute, about half a degree, the full moon is 30 arc minute. Sky is huge. Sun or moon is tiny. Target "beyond weapon range" is much much smaller. IRST has very limited field-of-view ( FLIR has 8 degree for target acquisition) and detector/imager has limited resolution. Rotating the "eye" is much slower than electronically scanning the radar. So detecting aircraft by IR signature is not that easy.

Infrared radiation by sky background depends on a lot factors: altitude, temperature, humidity, cloud cover and so on. Target infrared radiation depends on the target surface temperature, emissivity, atmospheric absorption, target geometry and so on. IR signature varies at different spectrum. It is not as simple as "hot frame against -40 or -50 outside temperatures".

And Gish Gallop doesn't help.
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Unread post21 Jun 2017, 18:49

euromaster wrote:
Perhaps, honestly I am not sure how much of a difference it would make statistically speaking but I also would consider the fact the F-35 will be a slower aircraft trying to strike "up" at a faster, faster climbing higher alttiude aircraft which has the advances from the opposite perspective, from its higher perch would give its missiles incredible energy. In fact if I recall the supercruise alone of the Typhoon would boost is missile range up to 50%, how much more energy even equal armament (AMRAAM) the Typhoons weapon would have with that combined with it shooting "down" on the F-35 is likely going to give it huge advantages at first shot, first kill, even greater if its Meteor armed vs a F-35 still shuffling along with AMRAAM

You can't get first shot without first look.
Typhoon can detect F-35 by IRST but then there is still problems with generating firing solution. LRF range is quite short, less than 20 km. Others methods aren't so reliable
Meteor and AIM-120 are both radar guided missiles, probably cannot even find the F-35 given its low RCS. So it is Typhoon with ASRAAM vs F-35 with AIM-120D or Meteors


euromaster wrote:
While the [b]Typhoons struggles are just finding the F-35 which may or not be a problem depending on altitude and heat output of the F-35. It needs not worry about any other disadvantage and although were not likely to know due to classified information even the F-35 may not detect it favorably (in regards to getting clear shots with its AMRAAM) with its radar in regards to the Typhoons own size/stealth reduction features without actively scanning and potentially giving itself away in the process


APG-81 has 1600 T/R modules, CAPTOR-E has around 1000. F-35 is stealthy, can even hide from surface radar, Eurofighter is at most same level of RCS reduction as Super hornet. It is undeniable that F-35 will detect Typhoon from much further distance. Typhoon will also struggle to guide its Meteor to F-35, if big ground radar can't even detect F-35 then there isn't much hope for small radar in fighters and air to air missiles


euromaster wrote:
This is all assuming the PIRATE does not find the F-35 with ease of course, at typical air to air altitudes I have no reason to suggest otherwise, I have seen enough stealth aircraft (F-22. F-35, B-2) and this is at low altitudes most of the time or at comparatively low speed, not aircraft trying to push the reach of their missiles.

All these photos are taken of aircraft less than a few km aways against sky backgrounds. Secondly, thicker air at sea level will cause more friction too.
Fook at this image of F-16 and see the contrast against clouds background, now imagine that from long distance
Image

euromaster wrote: Too low and slow and the low weapon load carrying F-35 could be analogized to a spear-men trying to poke up at an archer on the battlements

If you want to make an analogy, it is like a spear men in a forest trying to kill a blind archer.
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armedupdate

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Unread post23 Jun 2017, 03:07

The Eurofighter IRST isn't designed to locking on enemy fighters and guiding missiles unless very close to cue ASRAAM. IRST for fire control requires range and velocity, something passive cameras cannot do unless you have a LRF(which EF lacks) or coordinating triangulation. Something the Eurofighter cannot do since it doesn't use a instantenous datalink, it uses to Link-16. F-35 could thanks to MADL. And if it is active radar homing missile, the F-35 will have a huge advantage since the enemy missile needs more time to aquire the target, time to dodge/chaff.

As for IRST for finding targets, most militaries don't rely on them due to atmospheric conditions. Civilian contrails from a globalized world along with those left from previous military flights could blind them. Even if you ~30-50 km on a good day maybe on a good day may be enough for fire solution with the future dual-pulse and ramjet missiles once picked off at a way longer distance by radar.
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Unread post08 Jul 2017, 09:18

To me it seems almost impossible for a Typhoon to shoot down an F-35 -- the F-35 pilot would have to make some serious mistakes for this to happen.

However perhaps what is sometimes forgotten in these discussions is the other part of the equation. How easy will it be for the F-35 to shoot down the Typhoon? It will of course depend on "which Typhoon", e.g., an Austrian T1 Typhoon should probably be a "walk in the park" as they say.

However the latest and most up-to-date Typhoon would be more of a challenge. It does have much improved SA and also some interesting countermeasures, like the Britecloud.

The IRIS-T missile has also been integrated on the Typhoon. It has anti-missile capabilites.
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Unread post08 Jul 2017, 12:59

juretrn wrote:Oh, and remember the news from February this year when apparently there was a "dogfight" between a Su-27 and F-16 at Groom Lake?
His comment was:
We are not sure what the Americans think they are going to learn. The Sukhoi has better acceleration, rate-of-climb, deceleration, transonic handling, better low-speed and post-stall handling and (far) better combat persistence (unrefueled endurance) than all Western fighters. The Sukhoi simply enters a climbing combat-turn....and in a few moments...its all over. The F-22A may have a higher horizontal sustained turn rate, however, this remains unclear.

Wow. Just wow.


1. Take a closer look at the groom lake dogfight photo: F-16 was carrying a central line fuel tank. That is not fair:
f16 fuel tank against su27.png


2. In the eyes of a F-16 pilot (Fred "Spanky" Clifton. His user name is fulcrumflyer in this forum)

"While flying the F-16, I found the Su-27 to be a much more lethal BVR airplane (compared to Mig-29) with the exended-range AA-10C. The Flanker also has a very robust infrared search-and-track system that can also cause issues. You still have an advantage with the AMRAAM. You just have to be more cautious. In the visual fight, the Flanker is still impressive for an aircraft of its size. If the Su-27 is fairly heavyweight then it's a wallowing pig. If it has burned off some fuel, its nose-pointing ability a high angles of attack is impressive. So is its energy bleed off. If you can get him to give up some energy, I found it very beatable with the F-16. On the other hand, the Flanker is a lot like the F-15 - it's a maintenance nightmare."
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