F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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Scorpion82

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Unread post05 Jan 2010, 19:37

SpudmanWP wrote:The EODAS was never meant for "long range detection" of fighters. It was designed as a WVR sensor to track all airborne targets and to detect and track missile launches. For long range detection of fighters in the forward and lower sectors, it has the EOTS.

It also support the tracking of ground targets and functions as a navigational aid for landing at night or bad weather.


All known, the problem is that certain people seem to try to sell the DAS as an upper SA tool in general, when it is just good a shorter range and at those it certainly is as said. Where we are at it are there any information released regarding automatic target recognition algorithms for the DAS? If not how is it going to identify a target or has the pilot to take a look at each single contact?
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Unread post05 Jan 2010, 19:45

Scorpion82 wrote:Regarding 3.) A strong engine means nothing if the weight is high and internal carriage doesn't fully neglict limited aerodynamic performance.

F-35's TW ratio is the same as F-16C Block 52, and better than Su-30MKI for example. It's enough. Plus it will fly in clean configuration.
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Unread post05 Jan 2010, 20:15

Lightning Sight F-35 Helmet-Mounted Display By Sydney Carroll

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives ... index.html

"The helmet-mounted display system, or HMDS, displays head-steerable symbology, meaning the pilot's line of sight dictates the content that appears on the visor. As soon as, or even before, a pilot sees another aircraft in the distance, the system projects a marker on the visor to locate, identify, and track the aircraft. If the designated aircraft is determined to be hostile, the pilot can use the targeting info to cue weapons—without looking down at the cockpit displays and while pulling g's.

"No matter where pilots look, they have all the flight information right in front of their eyes," says Dave Perkins, lead engineer of HMDS integration. "The helmet displays airspeed, altitude, rate of climb, and the aiming information for all the weapons. The helmet even displays all the information needed should something go wrong. For example, it provides an alert and directs the pilot's attention if there's something nasty coming from the nose of the airplane while the pilot is looking somewhere else."

With a lot more words in this article of course - not seen here - for Scorpion82 to read.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post05 Jan 2010, 20:20

The EODAS system does support some target ID, but remember that it has no optical zoom.
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Scorpion82

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Unread post05 Jan 2010, 20:45

spazsinbad wrote:With a lot more words in this article of course - not seen here - for Scorpion82 to read.


Thanks, but I have read that article before and it doesn't answer the question regarding the DAS.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post05 Jan 2010, 22:03

"In the age of high off-boresight weaponry and highly maneuverable aircraft, hesitation means defeat," intones the narrator. "... With DAS, maneuverability is irrelevant. Instead of mutual kills, the F-35 simply exits the fight, and lets its missiles do the turning." — Bill Carey

‘Game-Changing’ EO DAS Nears Action on JSF August 1, 2008

http://www.aviationtoday.com/av/categor ... 24687.html

"As a fifth-generation, multirole fighter, the F-35 Lightning II brings a lot to the table in terms of stealth, lethality and survivability. One "transformational" system that is quietly nearing flight on the aircraft is the Electro-Optical Distributed Aperture System (EO DAS).
Designated AN/AAQ-37, the EO DAS is comprised of six infrared sensors, flush-mounted around the aircraft to afford 360-degree, spherical coverage — in mathematical terms "4 pi steradian." The sensor array will provide the F-35 pilot with missile-warning, situational awareness and navigation FLIR, operating simultaneously, in one package. Integrated via the mission computer, the system will support target detection and identification functions of the aircraft’s Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS) and AN/APG-81 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.....
...."Most people think of us as the radar company [but] this is the real game-changer for the F-35 that separates it from the F-22 and the F-18," said Dave Bouchard, director of JSF Programs. "The F-22 has a very basic missile launch detection system; this is a significant game-changing capability."
Said Pete Bartos, marketing director for Combat Avionics Systems, "People really don’t get what DAS does. It’s just one of those unknown, very core pieces of the JSF that, by the way, no other airplane in the world has."
Development of the system started in 2002, based on earlier technology. The program included flights of a F-16 equipped with a DAS sensor in a centerline pod to record data in a dynamic fighter environment. Live missile testing was conducted to collect data and validate models. The first flight of an EO DAS on Northrop Grumman’s BAC 1-11 testbed, initially fitted with three sensors, took place in November 2005.
Data collected during flight tests has been used to develop and optimize algorithms that process sensor data — where the real functionality of the system lies, Bouchard said. "In the algorithms, we seamlessly stitch together two or three cameras depending on the field of regard. Our requirement is to have seamlessly stitched, near 20/20 visual acuity," he said. Extremely fast update rates are required to prevent latency of the DAS imagery, which will be projected onto the pilot’s helmet-mounted display. "It has to be updated fast enough so the eye can’t tell it’s a video image as opposed to the real image," he said.....
........DAS sensors collect a terabyte per hour of data. That information is archived by the company to check system performance. However, the baseline F-35 has no data storage mechanism, and using the system to track a missile, for example, "will be like taking a sip out of a fire hydrant," he said."
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Unread post05 Jan 2010, 22:20

spazsinbad wrote:will support target detection and identification functions of the aircraft’s Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS) and AN/APG-81


Will support in which way is the question. Does it provide cues for the EOTS or APG-81 to ID the target, will it present images itself, does it feature automatic algorithms to do so... I don't expect somebody to know yet, but these are the questions which interest me.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post06 Jan 2010, 01:23

The level of integration in the F-35's systems is such that ANY sensor, be it onboard or off, can provide cuing for other sensors to follow up on. Depending on the mission perimeters (EM silent, using EOTS actively,etc), this cuing could be automatic.
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Scorpion82

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Unread post06 Jan 2010, 15:27

SpudmanWP wrote:The level of integration in the F-35's systems is such that ANY sensor, be it onboard or off, can provide cuing for other sensors to follow up on. Depending on the mission perimeters (EM silent, using EOTS actively,etc), this cuing could be automatic.


All fine, but neither answering my question, nor is it something special or unique to the F-35 only.
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Unread post06 Jan 2010, 18:41

Electro optical device have its limitations.

For example it can be blocked by clouds, and give false alarms with several kinds of IR bursts not necessarily caused by missile launches. Detection of incoming burned out missiles could be a problem.

A radar based MAWS should be much better as it can filter out collision trajectories, prevent false returns etc.


F-35's DAS as I see it is good to compensate for the cocpits limited view angles and for targeting and in certain circunstances IFF.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post06 Jan 2010, 19:09

Scorpion82 wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:
The level of integration in the F-35's systems is such that ANY sensor, be it onboard or off, can provide cuing for other sensors to follow up on. Depending on the mission perimeters (EM silent, using EOTS actively,etc), this cuing could be automatic.


All fine, but neither answering my question, nor is it something special or unique to the F-35 only.
Ok, here is the breakdown. Btw, the sheer number of sensors, and their type make it unique.

Scorpion82 wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:will support target detection and identification functions of the aircraft’s Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS) and AN/APG-81


Will support in which way is the question. Does it provide cues for the EOTS or APG-81 to ID the target,
yes

Scorpion82 wrote:will it present images itself,
yes

Scorpion82 wrote:does it feature automatic algorithms to do so...
yes

Scorpion82 wrote:I don't expect somebody to know yet, but these are the questions which interest me.


Public knowledge via program updates and YouTube clips, aka LM Propaganda ;)
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post06 Jan 2010, 19:46

Pilotasso wrote:Electro optical device have its limitations.

For example it can be blocked by clouds, and give false alarms with several kinds of IR bursts not necessarily caused by missile launches. Detection of incoming burned out missiles could be a problem.
MAWs have been in use for MANY years and have proven to be successful. Any limitations they have are compensated for.

Pilotasso wrote:A radar based MAWS should be much better as it can filter out collision trajectories, prevent false returns etc.
Radar MAWs would be a GIANT "kick me" sign and would guarantee death by suicide every time. Enemy fighters would not have to use their own radar, just sit back and listen for your MAW and fire a radar-homing missile at your MAW signal and your dead. Add in that missiles already have a low RCS, and throw in some missile RAM and faceting and game over as the MAW will never see it coming.

Pilotasso wrote:F-35's DAS as I see it is good to compensate for the cocpits limited view angles and for targeting and in certain circunstances IFF.
EODAS will:
--Provide tracking of all fighters in the WVR rangeband, no more "where's my target"
--Provide long-range warning of missile launches and short range (5-10 km) detection of missile approach after motor burnout
--Track moving ground targets
--Aid in night navigation (replaces NVGs
--Weapons support, ie cuing and mid course updates for AAMs
--etc, etc, etc
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post06 Jan 2010, 22:22

More on the sensor fusion..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnE2yCc-Yfs

The whole thing is good, but at the first 30 seconds and at 1:30 they start taking about sensor fusion.

Good tidbits:
1. Main display shows "situational awareness" tracks coming from any sensor or off-board source.

2. When a target is added to the shoot list, it's track is automatically upgraded to a "weapons quality" track that can be from any source, not just radar.

3. Can do 8 A2A and 16 A2A weapons quality tracks and 100 situational awareness tracks at the same time.
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Unread post07 Jan 2010, 01:13

SpudmanWP wrote:Ok, here is the breakdown. Btw, the sheer number of sensors, and their type make it unique.


Agreed that the number of sensors and at least in the case of the EODAS their type is unique. Sensorfusion as such, including the ability to cue a sensor by another sensor is not unique.

For the identification thing, it appears not to ID targets, neither via imaging nor via algorithms.

The result is that it does not need to recognise targets by their signature...


It continously tracks known targets and if they are identified by another system DAS is capable to assign this ID and keep it in memory while continueing tracking.

That's from the DTI_EODAS.pdf
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post07 Jan 2010, 02:34

Re: Maintaining ID vs doing the ID itself... your right, my bad. Seems computer power has not kept up with sensor capability yet.
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