F-35A vs KF-X

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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steve2267

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Unread post15 Jul 2018, 22:53

Wow. I stand corrected.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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steve2267

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Unread post15 Jul 2018, 22:54

Does there also exist evidence of aileron rolls around an SR-71 at 72,000ft?
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post16 Jul 2018, 02:39

I would think the radar guided Falcon was more of a chase missile than one suitable for head-on interception.
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Unread post17 Jul 2018, 05:34

Japanese next fighter seems to have infiltrated this thread (by STEALTH!?) so I'll post this info here perhaps a new thread?
Lockheed Martins’ F-22, F-35 hybrid for Japan will cost $177 million per aircraft
16 Jul 2018 ALERT5 from Yomiuri Online

"The Yomiuri Shimbun disclosed that the Lockheed Martin F-22 with F-35 avionics proposal for Japan is being sold at $177 million for each aircraft. An anonymous defense official says while Lockheed’s proposal is most suitable, the price is much higher than the $133 million per aircraft that Tokyo is willing to fork out...."

Source: https://www.yomiuri.co.jp/politics/2018 ... 50017.html [original Japanese} otherwise: http://alert5.com/2018/07/17/lockheed-m ... -aircraft/
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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popcorn

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Unread post17 Jul 2018, 05:54

Note that's $177M just for the avionics from LM. Presumably engines, airframe, etc. will be Japan's expense. This thing is gonna result in an epic case of sticker shock.
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Unread post17 Jul 2018, 07:17

popcorn wrote:Note that's $177M just for the avionics from LM.
:doh:

You could buy 10 times the F-35's avionics and still not reach that number.
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Unread post17 Jul 2018, 10:09

Japan would know such a proposal would be to expensive from the start. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised. If, it was just a political move.............


Nonetheless, what I originally said is the most likely course. That Japan will continue to acquire F-35's for short-term. While, joining with a partner or partners to develop a future 6th Generation Fighter long term.


"IMHO"
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barrelnut

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Unread post17 Jul 2018, 18:29

madrat wrote:I would think the radar guided Falcon was more of a chase missile than one suitable for head-on interception.


No, it was definitely designed for head-on intercepts, how successful it was in that I don't know.

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-26.html
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Unread post20 Jul 2018, 01:10

It is possible the Japanese publicly try to acquire the avionics from LM and they do the airframe etc etc. If that is the case, then I think the Japanese may just be approaching it as a technology transfer program similar to the old Galaxy Express launch vehicle. Galaxy Express was ostensibly a launch vehicle program wherein Lockheed Martin would provide an Atlas III stage 1, the Japanese would build the 2nd stage, provide the payload fairing, mission avionics etc etc. The Japanese ended up acquiring a LOT of launch vehicle technology, legally, from LM all with the blessing of the US State Dept, but in the end, threw up their hands and said, this is too expensive, and shut the whole shebang down. (Granted, it was 2008, and the economy had tanked pretty much everywhere, or was in the process of tanking, but the fact that the Japanese govt threw in the towel suggested to me that they were happy with the technology they had acquired; I wonder if that was their goal from the beginning?)

If this new Japanese fighter involves technology transfer from LM and/or other US companies, the US would do well to go into any such agreement with its eyes wide open. FWIW.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post22 Sep 2018, 03:55

I have visted DX 2018 Korea.

That event concentrated on Army equipment, however, I could see updated feature of KF-X model and Korean Apache helicopter

Separated control surface for flap and aileron, extended fuselage can be seen

http://jaesan-aero.blogspot.com/2018/09 ... korea.html
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maro.kyo

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Unread post26 Feb 2019, 23:10

Wow,things getting discussed here is almost to the extent of being toxic. :doh:
There goes someone who claims KF-X is a national pride stuff and others all cry out how irrational it is to develop an indigenous fighter... c'mon folks, interpreting everything from solely American or European perspective, you're ignoring almost everything except for how KF-X would compare to F-35 performance-wise.

I'm mostly annoyed about what's allegedly "the reason" of developing an indigenous fighter as discussed in this thread. National pride the sole reason to develop an indigenous fighter? Are you out of your mind? You think Korea is some politically unstable, underdeveloped nation without a functioning democracy, separation of powers and measures to stop irrational waste of national funds (okay, I should admit that there are some really embarrassing and shameful examples for this but it mostly isn't all that bad)? Do you even know that it took some 15 bloody years to get this project to the point that its something real? During those 15 years the project was literally half dead, just kept barely alive with a respirator. I'm not going to talk much about Indian and Turkish counterparts but this project was established on a politically solid basis when it finally materialized. The first requirement institution regarding KF-X was issued in 2002. In between there were loads of conceptual design work, doctrine research, precedent studies, feasibility studies, etc, etc, you name it. It didn't came out from nowhere without a reason.

Don't get me wrong, I myself is one of those pro-F35 guy. I never favored KF-X over F-35. But the thing is, you guys don't understand some key points.

First off, In ROKAF the requirement for specific kind of jet is fixed. It means there is a fixed amount of requirement within the service for high-, medium- and low- counterparts of tactical birds respectively. For high- class fighter that number is 120. Its been cut half from 240 which was the initial plan before the '97 financial crisis and it is de facto number ever since. Changing or issuing new requirement institution takes years to process. (another proof for KF-X is not just a stupid national pride project) One might say its bureaucratic but sustainable and feasible plan is the key in this sense. Its way better than spending tax money in a short sighted way, having different priorities based on different political agenda under different parties.

Anyways that 120 birds are soon to be filled, with 59 F-15K in service and 40 F-35 on orders, the 4th F-X would be the contract for 20 additional F-35 which is already included as contract option signed during the 3rd F-X and there's no doubt. Now, ROKAF classifies F-35 as high- class bird, how are you going to issue a requirement for medium- class fighter replacing the F-5 and in the near future, the falcons? It just doesn't work. The budget is already being processed separately by the parliament and its going to take ages fighting for the budget within the parliament. In that sense, KF-X is also very favorable because for the MPs, creating jobs by building a domestic equipment, thus spending less money to foreign product is a sound political deal to finance the project.

On top of that, ROKAF requires a substantial amount of tactical fighters, namely 430. That is the minimum requirement for defending the Korean airspace and maritime, already slashed down from 500 + in last few decades and has been a controversy ever since. No matter what you guys think, the heads of ROKAF thinks that its going to be hard to even keep that 430 jets in inventory if its fulled of foreign jets, including F-35. It's very hard to tell if KF-X is going to meet its planned cost of around $ 80 mil per unit (I'm personally skeptical about it) since its just the last month that the construction of the first prototype started, but that's the plan at least. The procurement cost aside, maintenance costs are sure to stay below F-35. (note that in Korea the added value to military equipment manufactured within Korea is fixed by the law) In that sense, KF-X by the plan, is at least equal or even better than most of the foreign options to fill up the medium- class fighter inventory.

Aforementioned ease of maintenance is the second reason for an indigenous jet. FA-50 has already shown a 90% + mission readiness and this is the case for almost all the other Korean equipment in all services. On the other had the ROK military had numerous bad experiences regarding the maintenance of foreign equipment, most notably the tiger-eye on the F-15K and the Hawk trainers. The time required and the cost for which the domestic equipment and parts are issued was unmatched for almost every example.

Thirdly, unlike the already rock solid aerospace industry in the US and Europe, one in Korea needs governmental help to sustain it. Building parts for commercial jets and servicing MRO doesn't suffice to keep the R&D capabilities. Just take a look at Taiwan after F-CK-1. Hell, even Japan has this problem. You guys don't seem to understand but X-2 and F-3 program has a lot to do with keeping their aerospace industry alive. Those bloody expensive C-2 cargo planes and P-1 patrol aircraft,which is still developed even when there is a better solution -just like the F-35 - called the P-8, is developed for a reason. It's not just some silly B2G relationship that keeps them alive. They produce jobs you know, not just some ordinary job but some very important ones. Its an utter failure as of now, but examples like MRJ are clearly noticeable what keeping the R&D capabilities alive leads to.

Lastly, integrating various Korean or other non-US ordnance is also a huge factor contributing to KF-X's existence. ROKAF's demand for various PGM is quite huge and takes a big share of US military exports to Korea. Making a domestic replacement makes sense in that manner and for that they need KF-X. Obviously, no matter of being close ally or not, there ain't no country who likes to see some foreign country messing up with the on-board computer and source codes on a military equipment, including the US.

Unlike what some believe, KF-X is still mostly Korean, with not only the fuselage but most of its avionics and FCS being developed by Korean firms. Providing help and guidance regarding such design is the job of TAC like lockmart or Elta who's helping out with the radar. I mean, demanding core capability related tech like system integration and sensor fusion technology as an offset for F-35 procurement was clearly an utterly stupid move but like I've said, they weren't really without a plan solely relying on those "possible" offset, there were R&D already going on regarding the core tech. Maybe they were just giving a try? A dumb try is still a try you see :| :shrug: Thus it worked out quite well during the first F-X I guess? KF-X is not a F-35 contender anyways. Maybe it could be sold to Gulf nations or other US partner nations who can't buy F-35 due to American doctrine but that's just some really optimistic forecast which I also find quite unlikely as of now.


So, does this still sound like an idiotic choice based on a political agenda to promote national pride and hopefully, win an election with it?

I mean if you want to earn a vote in Korea, promoting national pride by building a fighter jet ain't the best solution anyways. Seriously... :x
Last edited by maro.kyo on 27 Feb 2019, 00:02, edited 5 times in total.
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maro.kyo

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Unread post26 Feb 2019, 23:26

Besides, I will provide details on recent changes and the prototype design in a few days. There's been quite a change from the known official image of the final design (C109) after the PDR...
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Unread post27 Feb 2019, 01:07

I can't say that I've followed this thread super closely... but... what is your issue?

If Korea want's to spend Korean money on a Korean fighter jet...great! Just don't expect to come up with an aircraft that rivals the F-35. And don't expect America to give, or even to sell, Korea F-35 technology. America spent a small fortune developing that technology. It's her national treasure, in a manner of speaking.

Perhaps people here dismissed the KF-X program because the initial images seemed to suggest Korea was trying to create a knock-off clone of the F-35, as the aircraft outer mold lines were compared side by side.

You have already stated that the KF-X is targeting $80M each. Almost invariably, costs grow. So that $80M each is almost sure to increase. So Korea will be potentially getting an aircraft with perhaps the performance of a Gripen, maybe a Rafale, for the cost which is higher than an F-35A, without the benefits of full sensor fusion, mission data files, phenomenal situational awareness, EW capabilities second to none, and super small VLO numbers. But if that is how Korea wants to spend her money... then by all means, have at it.

Just don't expect F-35 performance out of it. (I mean, it is theoretically possible, but the F-35 has been under development for going on 20 years, so I don't see a nation duplicating that level of industrial effort in a short time span, EVEN IF studies have been ongoing for a while now.)
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post27 Feb 2019, 03:40

The KF-X is just a poor mans F-35 with two 4th Generation Engines. Which, is part of a High/Low Mix with the latter. It is not a rival in any sense of the word.
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Unread post27 Feb 2019, 05:31

I completely forgot about this aircraft. This is the most recent piece of news I found about it.
https://www.janes.com/article/85680/ind ... x-payments
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