F-35A vs KF-X

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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charlielima223

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 04:58

Corsair1963 wrote:Why make a Stealth Fighter only to carry external stores all of the time. That is like putting "lipstick on a pig".... :?


I would assume it was a conscious design compromise. Developing and maintaining stealth aircraft is no simple task nor is it cheap. Yes the F-35 is more maintainable than the F-22 which was far more maintainable than the F-117 and B-2. However you still have maintain the F-35's LO features to keep an acceptable LO aspect.
I would guess the designers of the KF-X wanted to go half way in an attempt to reduce cost. Instead of Super Hornet, Typhoon, and Rafale which have minor LO features in its design, the KF-X has obvious LO outer shaping but doesnt go full on stealth like F-35 and F-22.

IMO the KF-X looks like a good middle of the road fighter aircraft if this ever goes into production and to anyone interested in a semi-stealthy fighter.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 05:44

charlielima223 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Why make a Stealth Fighter only to carry external stores all of the time. That is like putting "lipstick on a pig".... :?


I would assume it was a conscious design compromise. Developing and maintaining stealth aircraft is no simple task nor is it cheap. Yes the F-35 is more maintainable than the F-22 which was far more maintainable than the F-117 and B-2. However you still have maintain the F-35's LO features to keep an acceptable LO aspect.
I would guess the designers of the KF-X wanted to go half way in an attempt to reduce cost. Instead of Super Hornet, Typhoon, and Rafale which have minor LO features in its design, the KF-X has obvious LO outer shaping but doesnt go full on stealth like F-35 and F-22.

IMO the KF-X looks like a good middle of the road fighter aircraft if this ever goes into production and to anyone interested in a semi-stealthy fighter.


Problem is a Stealthy KFX is not more stealthy than your average 4/4.5 Generation Fighter. The second you add all on those external stores.

So, again what's it's advantage??? :|
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ricnunes

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 15:02

eagleowl wrote:The airframe changes are already there, structurally a belly IWB can be added.


That would even be more "bizarre" (using your own term, just not to call it again, ridiculous). A (belly) IWB will increase weight and above all DRAG. And this into an aircraft that probably won't have that good of Thrust-to-Weight Ratio to start with.

eagleowl wrote:Blame Korean MoD/Korean AF for their (bizarre) ROC that didn't require stealth in the first place if you want.


Then why go to all the extend to creating an aircraft with a fuselage that is clearly meant to give the aircraft a low RCS?
If what you said made much sense then why not chose a more conventional design which in the end would most likely be cheaper while at the same time have a similar RCS when external weapons are loaded?
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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wrightwing

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 15:58

The F-35 has a lower RCS than conventional jets, while carrying external stores. I fail to see why the KF-X wouldn't similarly benefit. The ultimate goal it sounds like, is internal carriage on later Blocks. That being said, it's a jobs program. They'd be better off just buying 100+ F-35s
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ricnunes

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 16:08

wrightwing wrote:The F-35 has a lower RCS than conventional jets, while carrying external stores. I fail to see why the KF-X wouldn't similarly benefit. The ultimate goal it sounds like, is internal carriage on later Blocks. That being said, it's a jobs program. They'd be better off just buying 100+ F-35s


Yes, but then again the diferences in RCS between the F-35 and "conventional jets" are massive while the diferences in RCS between this KF-X and "conventional jets" likely won't be big and even more so considering that the KF-X will carry the weapons externally. Another very big diference is that the F-35 carries its EO and IRST sensors internally while this KF-X will carry it externally just like the "conventional jets".

Either way, I believe that going this route the Koreans will miss what IMO would be a tremendous market share opportunity, this for countries that otherwise won't have access to the F-35 and thus will be "forced" to turn to the Chinese and/or Russians (if they pull out their projects).
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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zerion

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 16:56

ricnunes wrote:That would even be more "bizarre" (using your own term, just not to call it again, ridiculous). A (belly) IWB will increase weight and above all DRAG. And this into an aircraft that probably won't have that good of Thrust-to-Weight Ratio to start with.

The space for the bay was supposed to be designed in from the beginning, at least most of it, they wanted to reduce the complexity for the initial development.
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element1loop

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 17:10

Yeah, but if you ditched the weapons, pods and fuel it would literally look just like a 5th-gen at the air show! Who doesn't want that?
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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ricnunes

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 21:29

zerion wrote:
ricnunes wrote:That would even be more "bizarre" (using your own term, just not to call it again, ridiculous). A (belly) IWB will increase weight and above all DRAG. And this into an aircraft that probably won't have that good of Thrust-to-Weight Ratio to start with.

The space for the bay was supposed to be designed in from the beginning, at least most of it, they wanted to reduce the complexity for the initial development.


Are you really sure of this?
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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zerion

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 22:27

I saw it at least once, but it’s totally subject to the accuracy of the reporters, so it could easily be fake news.

Edit: found this
Block 2 would add internal weapon bays, which Block 1 would be compatible with but not have.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/kf- ... am-010647/

Report is from 2013

Block 2 would carry weapons internally, a provision for which would be made in the Block 1 design.

http://aviationweek.com/awin/list-kf-x-opponents-grows
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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 23:20

zerion wrote:I saw it at least once, but it’s totally subject to the accuracy of the reporters, so it could easily be fake news.

Edit: found this
Block 2 would add internal weapon bays, which Block 1 would be compatible with but not have.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/kf- ... am-010647/

Report is from 2013

Block 2 would carry weapons internally, a provision for which would be made in the Block 1 design.

http://aviationweek.com/awin/list-kf-x-opponents-grows


The first bulkhead produced for the kf-x quite literally is shaped as if there will be F-22 like belly IWBs.

https://defence-blog.com/news/south-kor ... craft.html

fe48b0ebd9129483635898e9ec817004_Ysuc9f6RcLR9IN.jpg
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weasel1962

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Unread post18 Oct 2019, 06:56

http://defense-studies.blogspot.com/201 ... er-to.html
Original source (Vietnamese) in link.

Delegation from Vietnam during ADEX 2019 (photo : BaoDatViet)

At the ADEX Defense Exhibition 2019 taking place in Seoul from October 15 to October 21, South Korea exhibited many modern weapons in search of potential customers.

Among the Korean-made domestic weapons, notably the 1: 1 scale model of the 5 KF-X stealth fighter, Seoul recently announced the completion of the design process to prepare. built prototype prototypes.

Although still in the "infancy" stage, the KF-X fighter is considered to be a weapon with high export potential of this Northeast Asian country, attracting the attention of many potential customers. .

At ADEX 2019, the high-ranking military delegation of Vietnam took a close look at the special fighter and was introduced to its tactical features by your side. However, there is still a long way to go to place an order when KF-X's rival Su-57 proved too strong.

The KF-X stealth fighter research program, apart from the main Korean cost, also contributed by Indonesia with 1.5 billion USD in the total estimate of nearly 7.67 billion USD, so the KF-X also known as IF-X.

Preliminary drawings of the stealth fighter KF-X have actually been leaked since 2013, but it was not until mid-2018 that the Korean Defense Procurement Agency officially confirmed.

At that time, they said the basic technical and design requirements as well as the AESA active scan array radar expected to be fitted to the fighter were completed.

Jung Kwang-sun, the leader of DAPA's KF-X program, once said: "We plan to complete the detailed design work in September 2019 and start prototype production," so they finished on time when announcing the process ended 1 month ago.

The published design (codenamed C-109) has completed the tests in the wind tunnel. The first KF-X is expected to ship in 2021 and test flight will take place in 2022.

A very interesting detail is that in the graphic images, the KF-X carries 4 air-to-air missiles outside MBDA Group's Meteor vision and 2 IRIS-T short-range air-to-air missiles at the tip. wing.

Initially, the KF-X intended to integrate the AIM-120 AMRAAM and AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles made by Raytheon, but the features of the highly-rated European missile made Seoul rethink.

Another detail to consider is that although it is called a fifth generation fighter, the KF-X fighter does not have a weaponry in the body and still uses an external mount.

Concerned about the fact that the radar reflex area (RCS) of the KF-X fighter did not meet the standard, the designers made it clear that the fighter had three variants corresponding to each stage of transmission. development.

The first version of KF-X Block 1 is the newly adopted configuration that will have RCS equivalent to current 4th and 4+ fighters that are F/A-18E/F, Rafale or Eurofighter Typhoon.

Next, in the KF-X Block 2 generation, the aircraft will have a body bay and the RCS reduced to the equivalent of the first stealth fighter like the F-117.

Finally, the most complete version of KF-X Block 3, the aircraft will have radar cross-section area comparable to F-22, F-35 and B-2 - the most advanced stealth aircraft currently.

As such, the immediate task of Korean aviation engineers is very chaotic, while waiting for the completion of KF-X, they will still have to buy F-35 to temporarily fill the void to not be left behind. Regional rival
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Unread post18 Oct 2019, 07:09

Really interesting way of doing things. Basically the Block 1 would be either a prototype or advanced 4th gen fighter in combat configurations. Block 2 would be closer to true 5th gen fighters, but supposedly with lower stealth qualities than F-22 or F-35. They envision that Block 3 would be true 5th gen fighter, but I have my doubts about South Korea being able to design and build such an aircraft by themselves. It's just so costly and resource consuming to develop and manufacture such aircraft especially in likely production quantities.
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zero-one

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Unread post18 Oct 2019, 11:14

Well block 3 may be built in the mid 2030s time line. So its basically asking them to build a 4.5 gen fighter today. Something they are well capable of with some outsourced parts like engines.

In my opinion, Their F/A-50 is quickly becoming the premier light fighter and successor to the F-5E.

They may also have far less requirements than the JSF program. No commonality with naval versions, engine may be the GE-414, radar may be outsourced as well.

Unlike US planes where everything is built from scratch, S.Korea may get plenty of outsourced components ala Gripen.

If you ask me, they may be looking for a plane that can simply match the F-35 in A-A with half the A-G capabilities.
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Unread post18 Oct 2019, 12:33

ADEX 2019: Lockheed Martin progresses F-35 offset projects in South Korea
17 Oct 2019 Jon Grevatt

Key Points...
• US corporation engages with local industry on KFX technology transfers...

...Steve Over, director of F-35 international business development at Lockheed Martin, told Jane's on 17 October that offset projects to provide a military communications satellite solution and technology transfers to support the development of South Korea's next-generation KFX fighter aircraft are currently under way....

...Over confirmed that in supporting the technology transfers Lockheed Martin is collaborating with Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI), the prime contractor on the KFX....

...In addition, the United States has granted approvals to support Lockheed Martin's transfer to South Korea of 21 technology suites to support the KFX. These suites include flight control technologies, avionics, system integration, materials, and unspecified weaponry."

Source: https://www.janes.com/article/92019/ade ... outh-korea
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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Unread post18 Oct 2019, 12:54

Horrible idea, this Block 1, 2 and 3 IMO..

Makes it unwieldy out of the gate, and there's no guarantee they ever get to block 2 standard, let alone block 3. This strategy is most likely driven by the fact they know they're nowhere near block 2 and 3, at least as they've defined it. Either build a full up stealth aircraft with internal weapons bay and sensors, or don't do it at all.
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