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Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2018, 21:59
by marsavian
Noticed previous thread on this vs, F-35 vs J-20, ... posted for possible future merging ...

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=52912

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2018, 06:34
by spazsinbad
J-20 stealth fighter's capabilities to be enhanced
13 Mar 2018 China Daily

"China will continue to improve and upgrade its cutting-edge J-20 stealth fighter jet, giving it more capabilities than merely penetrating an enemy's air defense networks, according to its chief designer. Yang Wei, a deputy director of science and technology at Aviation Industry Corp of China and an academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, told China Daily in an exclusive interview that designers will develop variants of the radar-evading J-20 and will open research on its successor-a sixth-generation fighter jet.

"We are not complacent about what we have achieved. We will develop the J-20 into a large family and keep strengthening its information-processing and intelligent capacities. At the same time, we will think about our next-generation combat plane to meet the nation's future requirements," Yang said....

..."In the past, we had to follow others' paths when it came to designing military aircraft because our research and development capabilities were primitive in this regard, but now we have become capable of designing and making what we want to have," he said.

The senior designer said that the J-20 is the best fighter jet in China, so it would be used at the most crucial moments during a war. "Of course, it will be tasked with penetrating air defense networks, but that will not be its only mission. It definitely has multiple functions. How we will use it depends on its production and deployment scale," Yang said....

...In addition to the J-20, AVIC is testing the FC-31, another fifth-generation combat plane, and wants to use it to tap the international market for advanced fighter jets. The Air Force has made clear that it will not allow exports of the J-20."

Source: http://en.people.cn/n3/2018/0313/c90000-9436307.html

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2018, 14:47
by spazsinbad
Fifth-generation Fighters Officially Move Into Next Phases
09 Mar 2018 Reuben F. Johnson

"...The J-20 is supposed to receive a new Chinese-made WS-15 engine, but for now the engines in different versions of the aircraft seen to date are variants of the Shenyang Liming Aero-Engine Group WS-10A that is installed in the Shenyang J-11B, or a Russian-made Salyut AL-31FM2/3 variant....

...on February 9, the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) declared that its J-20 had completed all testing and had been commissioned into combat service. “It marks an important step for the J-20 to have comprehensive combat capabilities,” announced Shen Jinke, a spokesman for the PLAAF. “The stealth jets will improve the air force’s comprehensive fighting ability and enable it to better safeguard China's sovereignty, security, and territorial integrity.”

...the Chengdu aircraft seems to be operational in name only at this point. There are only eight of the J-20 prototypes flying, along with 20 or more “operational” aircraft. Analysts of the PRC’s defense industry also point out that there is a previous history of fighter aircraft being declared operational, but in reality they remain tethered to the production plant, as was the case with the Chengdu J-10.

Sources that spoke to AIN in Singapore also confirmed previous news reports that the J-20 has a substantial logistics tail in the form of specialized, climate-controlled hangars that maintain the aircraft at constant temperature and humidity levels. Extended exposure to the elements reportedly degrades the RCS reduction properties of the aircraft. “The number of these hangars and the process of constructing them is a limiting factor in the deployment of these aircraft,” reported one PRC aircraft analyst.

The WS-15 engine that is designed for the J-20 is not projected to be available before 2019. Until this time, the aircraft does not have an engine with the thrust levels required for it to achieve its specified performance, including the ability to supercruise. If the J-20 follows a similar path to that of the J-10, the introduction of a new, non-Russian engine will require a significant redesign of the inlet and the rear fuselage."

Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ext-phases

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 14 Mar 2018, 18:24
by mixelflick
manfredzhang wrote:http://news.ifeng.com/a/20170703/51365644_0.shtml

Translation:

A high level discussion regarding “future air combat” was held in Beijing during which the “dogfighter is useless” comment posted above was revealed.
A few highlights:
Figures attending the discussion include Yang Wei, chief designer of J-20, Xu Yongling, test pilot and An Shidong, former Director in charge of Air Force military theory study.
The discussion generally recognize the USAF’s understanding of future air combat meaning things like situation awareness, relying on system rather individual aircraft, focusing on BVR engagement are the features of future air combat.
The discussion largely downplays the importance of dogfight and WVR engagement.
The discussion largely recognizes the result of the Red Flag exercise and F-35 as a fighter jet while in the meantime being very critical to so called “military specialist” e.g. Tyler Rogoway (did not mention his name) and Fox Trot Alpha who repeatedly bash F-35.
The discussion speaks very high of situation awareness and information processing and tries to persuade the air force to change their mind and shift their focus from maneuverability to information fusion.


They might subscribe to that theory (now), but it's questionable whether they thought that way during the J-20's genesis. More likely I think, is that China's first foray into stealth technology not be too ambitious. Meaning incorporating super-maneuverability (or even very maneuverable) component into the J-20 wasn't in the cards.

Think F-117. When Lockheed developed it, stealth was in its infancy in this country. The flat, faceted shape and other issues dictated the emphasis be on a low observable, stable strike platform strictly air to ground in its mission. The J-20 looks to be more advanced, but a as a low observable (if not VLO), stable missile and strike platform it excels. Plenty of gas for the Pacific theatre, it nonetheless has no intention of mixing it up with F-35's or F-22's. I see it strictly as a standoff missile platform against carrier strike groups, and perhaps tankers and AWACS (if its sensors are up to snuff).

A stealthy F-111 it will be, with all of the air to air shortcomings of the F-111B in particular...

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2018, 22:13
by lbk000
So I woke up with lots of tin foil in my hair: maybe Tyler Rogoway, Carlo Kopp, et al. are all deep cover psyop agents trying to delay opfor doctrinal revision through chronic downplaying of Western capabilities.

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2018, 23:33
by ricnunes
mixelflick wrote:The J-20 looks to be more advanced, but a as a low observable (if not VLO), stable missile and strike platform it excels. Plenty of gas for the Pacific theatre, it nonetheless has no intention of mixing it up with F-35's or F-22's. I see it strictly as a standoff missile platform against carrier strike groups, and perhaps tankers and AWACS (if its sensors are up to snuff).

A stealthy F-111 it will be, with all of the air to air shortcomings of the F-111B in particular...


Well my "interpretation" of the J-20 since "day one" was something like this:
- "Mig-31 meets F-111 with stealth/VLO features". Nothing that I read since then changed my mind in this regard.

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 06 Apr 2018, 16:19
by monkeypilot
According to East Pendulum, metamaterials may have been used for J-20. (for info, the author is an airbus engineer living Honkong and China for many years now). On French

http://www.eastpendulum.com/les-meta-ma ... et-le-j-20

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 06 Apr 2018, 18:37
by blindpilot
monkeypilot wrote:According to East Pendulum, metamaterials may have been used for J-20. (for info, the author is an airbus engineer living Honkong and China for many years now). On French

http://www.eastpendulum.com/les-meta-ma ... et-le-j-20


By far the best quote in the story, google translated -
"... To make a "categorical" comparison, regardless of context and history, is like asking which one between a cook and a gardener plays better golf, with a baseball bat in a pool. ..."

MHO anyway,
BP

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 01 Jun 2018, 23:10
by zerion
Long article on China's Air Force developments, best read at source.

The Chinese Air Force’s Great Leap Forward

Of the three world superpowers, two have operational squadrons of stealth fighters. One is the US. The other is not Russia, but China...

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... rward.aspx

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 02 Jun 2018, 01:29
by weasel1962
Sources tend to be conservative when quoting PLAAF/PLAN figures.

On number of flanker-variants. What is clearly verified was 38 Su-27SK, 40 Su-27UBKs, 76 Su-30MK, 24 Su-30MK2 and recently 24 Su-35. This totals 202 flanker imports. A further 95 J-11As were licensed produced Su-27s. Serials have been counted for J-15s up to 24.

What is generally less able to verify are J-11B/D and J-16 numbers. Current estimates are 1XX J-11B/Ds and 20-80 J-16s. Based on serials identified, there would be at least 400+ flanker variants on a conservative basis and as many as 500+ on the higher end of the estimates.

On J-10s, I noted 516 J-10 records in scramble of which 178 are re-registered which leaves at least 338. Scramble lists 25 J-10, 285 J-10A, 18 J-10AH, 1 J-10AQ, 9 J-10AY, 59 J-10B, 25 J-10C, 86 J-10S, 8 J-10SY. In many cases, not all serials have been spotted even though larger numbers have been spotted in certain brigades. Example 18 J-10AH spotted for the single PLAN J-10 regiment which in normal estab would operate 24 (which is 1 less than what FlightGlobal quoted).

With 12-13 units (including 170 Brigade) already spotted. 375+ as an estimate of J-10 numbers appears to be supportable.

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2018, 05:33
by gta4
That fleet is not a match to F-35.
One F-35 can solo at least 3-4 flankers / J-10s

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2018, 07:00
by weasel1962
gta4 wrote:That fleet is not a match to F-35.
One F-35 can solo at least 3-4 flankers / J-10s


Which is why a lot of people are advocating F-35s for the ROCAF, particularly the Bs.

But if every F-22 can take 5-6, why would the USAF need the F-35 then? In reality the equation is not so binary.

The USAF, USN or USMC can take out a lot of PLA aircraft, but they will need to find enough air bases within operational radius. At the same time, the PLA will be attempting to target those same bases with ballistic missiles and long ranged cruise missiles so precisely they don't have to tango with the F-22s and F-35s.

The current PLAAF fleet, if operated by the USAF leadership and USAF pilots, has a small probability of achieving that win today with its current resources. 10 years ago, they would have zero chance even with USAF leadership and USAF pilots. 10 years from now...

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2018, 10:28
by pfo
Taiwan F-16 missing. Downed by J-20 (stealth kill)?
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=211858

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2018, 13:17
by botsing
pfo wrote:Taiwan F-16 missing. Downed by J-20 (stealth kill)?
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=211858

Where does this wild speculation come from that the F-16 was shot down? And what about the even wilder claim that it was shot down by a Chinese J-20?

An F-16 goes missing on a training mission and suddenly it must be shot down by a stealth fighter? Come one man, F-16.net is not some RT/Sputnik conspiracy junk site.

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 04 Jun 2018, 14:04
by ricnunes
pfo wrote:Taiwan F-16 missing. Downed by J-20 (stealth kill)?
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=211858


<sarcasm mode=ON>

I'm pretty sure that Taiwanese F-16 was downed by a UFO (from extraterrestrial origin).

And it was the same UFO that downed all the F-16's that crashed over US Territory.

<sarcasm mode=OFF>