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Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2017, 12:42
by ricnunes
About the F-35 vs J-20 what I believe will happen is the following:

1- The F-35 detects the J-20 first with whatever means it possess
2- The F-35 shoots an AMRAAM
3- BOOOMMMMM, the J-20 explodes in a Fireball (I can almost hear the "great balls of fire" song from Jerry Lee Lewis in the background)
4- If the Chinese pilot survives (or whoever is flying the J-20) he will say to him(her)self: WTF!!!

Regarding the J-20 itself, no I don't think it will be a match for the F-35, however:
- I believe that the J-20 will be a combination of a stealthy Mig-31 (long range interceptor) but more maneuverable/agile (than the Mig-31) and a (longer range) interdiction aircraft in the lines of a (stealthy) Tornado or F-111.
- While and again not a match to the F-35 and by association not a match to the F-22, it will be an extremely and dangerous foe (and superior) to all other existing 4th and 4.5th gen fighter aircraft (like the Super Hornet, Rafale, Typhoon, etc...)

Resuming I think that the J-20 is a very interesting concept specially for a country like China which despite having a military being modernized it still lags behind the USA (and quite a lot)

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2017, 14:40
by lbk000
ricnunes wrote:Resuming I think that the J-20 is a very interesting concept specially for a country like China which despite having a military being modernized it still lags behind the USA (and quite a lot)

It's a smart idea, perhaps the only idea. Stealth aircraft like the F-35 and J-20 represent the lynchpin of A2AD, which is the modern moniker of the fleet-in-being concept. By simply remaining as a threat at large, the J-20 makes planners think twice about deploying non-stealth assets and therefore significantly raises the cost of ensuring success for an offensive operation, so that even despite its lack of development in other areas, China's defense remains formidable enough to maintain its diplomatic clout.

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2017, 15:19
by sferrin
lbk000 wrote:
ricnunes wrote:Resuming I think that the J-20 is a very interesting concept specially for a country like China which despite having a military being modernized it still lags behind the USA (and quite a lot)

It's a smart idea, perhaps the only idea. Stealth aircraft like the F-35 and J-20 represent the lynchpin of A2AD, which is the modern moniker of the fleet-in-being concept. By simply remaining as a threat at large, the J-20 makes planners think twice about deploying non-stealth assets and therefore significantly raises the cost of ensuring success for an offensive operation, so that even despite its lack of development in other areas, China's defense remains formidable enough to maintain its diplomatic clout.


Bet the USN is wishing it had an NATF about now.

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2017, 16:39
by XanderCrews
sferrin wrote:
lbk000 wrote:
ricnunes wrote:Resuming I think that the J-20 is a very interesting concept specially for a country like China which despite having a military being modernized it still lags behind the USA (and quite a lot)

It's a smart idea, perhaps the only idea. Stealth aircraft like the F-35 and J-20 represent the lynchpin of A2AD, which is the modern moniker of the fleet-in-being concept. By simply remaining as a threat at large, the J-20 makes planners think twice about deploying non-stealth assets and therefore significantly raises the cost of ensuring success for an offensive operation, so that even despite its lack of development in other areas, China's defense remains formidable enough to maintain its diplomatic clout.


Bet the USN is wishing it had an NATF about now.



Nah. More super hornets equal more jobs, more ships, more commands etc

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2017, 16:42
by XanderCrews
white_lightning35 wrote:
Certainly. That's why I said that I really hope trump listens to mattis and others and doesn't stupidly think he can do it alone.


Sigh.

Where was all this hand wringing when Obama routinely fired generals including Mattis? Obama screwed the military six ways from Sunday and the Trump basically says exactly that, and Trump is the loose cannon?

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2017, 17:05
by white_lightning35
I was not saying Obama wasn't an idiot. I meant that there is a reason that presidents have cabinets, and that Mattis seems very qualified. Without getting too political, Trump probably does not understand the intricacies of foreign policy and military matters yet, at least compared to people who have been doing this for a long time would.

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2017, 20:21
by gta4
Dragon029 wrote:
gta4 wrote:J20 is never claimed to have 360 deg DAS coverage. It lacks rear hemisphere coverage

The J-20's DAS or MAWS has 360 coverage:

Image


That is not a rear hemisphere coverage.

In order to measure distance, you need at least two optical devices to track the same target. But according to your photo, the rear and upper hemisphere was covered with one single optical window. That is insufficient for distance measurement and thus could not target for short range AA missile.

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2017, 20:31
by manfredzhang
http://news.ifeng.com/a/20170703/51365644_0.shtml

Translation:

A high level discussion regarding “future air combat” was held in Beijing during which the “dogfighter is useless” comment posted above was revealed.
A few highlights:
Figures attending the discussion include Yang Wei, chief designer of J-20, Xu Yongling, test pilot and An Shidong, former Director in charge of Air Force military theory study.
The discussion generally recognize the USAF’s understanding of future air combat meaning things like situation awareness, relying on system rather individual aircraft, focusing on BVR engagement are the features of future air combat.
The discussion largely downplays the importance of dogfight and WVR engagement.
The discussion largely recognizes the result of the Red Flag exercise and F-35 as a fighter jet while in the meantime being very critical to so called “military specialist” e.g. Tyler Rogoway (did not mention his name) and Fox Trot Alpha who repeatedly bash F-35.
The discussion speaks very high of situation awareness and information processing and tries to persuade the air force to change their mind and shift their focus from maneuverability to information fusion.

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 07 Jul 2017, 20:52
by SpudmanWP
Those are located in the same places on the J-20 as the EODAS sensors on the F-35.

EODAS does not measure distance either, nor does it have to.

The purpose of EODAS (in the A2A role) is to keep a track, in bearing only, of all WVR objects. When a missile is launched, it's guided in LOAL mode to the same bearing as the target where the seeker can acquire the target.

If two or more F-35s are in the area, then their two EODAS tracks will give you a precise location (which is automatically calculated & shared.. Yeah Data Fusion).

Image

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2017, 01:52
by gta4
I am pretty sure F-35 could measure the distance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7bwPLxo6u8
look how targets are marked on the "minimap", with an angle and a distance.

And, F-35 has more optical windows than J-20, which allows for at least 2 windows to track 1 single target from any direction.
This is why it could measure distance:
F35 das.jpg

From your photo of j20, we can only say that there are some some optical windows that allow for room for DAS, but
1) no evidence shows DAS already installed
2) no evidence shows J-20 could track any target, especially the rear hemisphere (F-35 has a video as proof)
3) China has not proven its missiles supports LOAL.

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2017, 02:09
by SpudmanWP
In no official F-35 docs will you see anything about EODA "ranging", only "tracking".

Both the J-20 and F-35 have exactly 6 DAS sensors located in the same locations (back, nose, cheeks, and belly x2).

You can track something with only one sensor (think using only one eye). You can also estimate range by using shape recognition if you know what the target is, but that is CPU limited and not sensor limited.

Here is an early PDF showing EODAS features:

Image

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2017, 03:27
by gta4
Both the J-20 and F-35 have exactly 6 DAS sensors located in the same locations (back, nose, cheeks, and belly x2).


Do you know multithreading in computer programming? 6 DAS devices could operate more than 6 optical lenses. There are some optical lenses at the root of F-35's tail, even though the sensors are not placed there.
This is confirmed OFFICIALY:
http://www.difesanews.it/archives/sched ... -fighter/2
f35 das official placement.jpg

F35 rear das.jpg



Please explain: why could F-35 DAS successfully measure distance from this OFFICIAL video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXoqb7GT6Lk&t=138s
f35 das measure distance.png

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2017, 03:35
by gta4
Keep in mind: ranging is crucial for LOAL, otherwise it could not distinguish targets from the same direction (they are overlayed), making the missile pursue the wrong target, even causing friendly fire.

If F-35 supports LOAL, it must support ranging.

And, J-20 does not have those additional optical lenses at the root of the tail. China has not demonstrated any kind of HOBS or LOAL capability.

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2017, 04:31
by spazsinbad
Sensor Fusion is key to F-35 abilities: see graphics: http://www.sldinfo.com/whitepapers/the- ... on-engine/

SLDinfo use of light orange colour text bugs me much - attached is a 2 page PDF of the URL text at the quote below,
The F-35 and Advanced Sensor Fusion
NO DATE SLDinfo

"...Advanced fusion does three things for the pilot.
First, it assembles a single integrated picture from all of the sensors.
Second, it tasks the sensors to fill in missing data.
Third, it shares the information with everyone else on the network....

...The Distributed Aperture System
The Distributed Aperture System (DAS) is a new and unique sensor. The DAS is comprised of six staring focal point arrays. These are infrared cameras flush-mounted on the skin of the airplane, which detect the entire sphere around the airplane – that’s 4 pi steradians for the mathematically inclined. The entire sphere is about 41,000 square degrees whereas the radar sees about 10,000 square degrees. There is an intersection of the two sensors however. Where they’re both looking through the same angular volume of space, fusion will work them synergistically, and they can queue each other. Fusion really does the queuing. As soon as one sensor detects something, fusion then queues every other sensor to look along that line of sight and try to find information about the track. The impressive thing is that this occurs without pilot involvement.

When fusion recognizes a DAS track is in the same angular space as the radar it will indicate to the Radar: “Radar, go look along this line of sight and get range on this track that DAS found.” Or if the radar has a track and it gimbals, or in other words, the track goes beyond the radar’s field of regard, fusion will tell DAS, “You keep updating this and hold onto the track for the pilot until it comes back into the field of regard of the radar or comes back into the field of regard of some other sensor on the airplane,” according to Skaff...."

Source: http://www.sldinfo.com/whitepapers/the- ... or-fusion/

Re: J-20 VERSUS F-35

Unread postPosted: 08 Jul 2017, 04:36
by cantaz
Guys, those aren't optical lenses, they're MADL antennas.