J-20 VERSUS F-35

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

gta4

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 890
  • Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 19:10

Unread post17 Jun 2018, 04:11

weasel1962 wrote:
gta4 wrote:Another proof of why 31700 lbs cannot be used to calculate t/w ratio directly:

If 31700 lbs is used to calculate T/W directly, F15C will have lower T/W than F35A, which contradicts a survey based on 31 usaf pilots (year: 2016)


Welcome to the debate about 20 years late. The detractors of the F-35 have been highlighting that the TW of the F-35 is not as good as 3G fighters due to the heavy weight of the F-35 hence proponents of keeping F-22 in production. That's why the RAAF and whole carlo kopp saga of RAAF should not buy F-35 but F-22 instead.... But eventually the F-22 production was terminated with the counter-argument, that a simple TW measurement cannot be utilised due to the drag of external fuel tanks, munitions, even discounting stealth.

The F-15E has a clean performance that is probably better than the F-35. In combat conditions, the difference is not so noticeable at the combat radius the USAF intends to operate under. The J-20 has the advantage of twin engines like the F-15E with no drag caused by external carriage.

One biggie was that the Chinese had little access to carbon fibers to enable light weight construction but chinese espionage cannot be underestimated. Carbon fiber imports are one of the items on embargo since day 1. Yet T-800 commericla production started in China in limited quantities in 2012 and went big by 2016. Notwithstanding that T1000 is now what US is capable of, the older F-22s and F-35s are build, I think with T-800s. Eventually a 6Gen fighter would take advantage of that but the Chinese are not that far behind.

Just a few days ago, announcement on the use of T-800 for helo and just before that 50+% for CR929 construction.


I suggest you read carefully. F35 does not have the power like F15, but it doesnt mean it is underpowered compared to other fighter jets. In fact it can easily out accelerate a clean flanker, with 20% advantage margin.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=53270
Offline

gta4

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 890
  • Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 19:10

Unread post17 Jun 2018, 04:25

Welcome to get back to the debate.

I seriously suspect a F35 can solo 2 or even more J20s close in.

In the horizontal, the F35 snaps around on a dime (J turn).

In the vertical, it loops extremely tight, and all pilots interviewed admitts F35 is on par with F15/16 in a climbing battle. (2016 report. F15/16 jettision their external stores)

It does not need to worry about energy because it recovers energy 20% faster than a CLEAN flanker.

What has the J20 demonstrated?
Offline

weasel1962

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1797
  • Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 02:41
  • Location: Singapore

Unread post18 Jun 2018, 02:40

I haven't really followed carbon fiber production for sometime. Looks like T1200 is what has been achieved outside of China. China is planning to produce T1200 by 2020. Research is already started for T2000.

With ultra thin carbon (nano)fibers, planes will even be visually transparent in some cases. Interesting tech with all the development into lightweight or integrated airframe construction materials, not surprising that there is already talk of 6G fighters.
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3534
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown

Unread post18 Jun 2018, 12:55

gta4 wrote:Welcome to get back to the debate.

I seriously suspect a F35 can solo 2 or even more J20s close in.

In the horizontal, the F35 snaps around on a dime (J turn).

In the vertical, it loops extremely tight, and all pilots interviewed admitts F35 is on par with F15/16 in a climbing battle. (2016 report. F15/16 jettision their external stores)

It does not need to worry about energy because it recovers energy 20% faster than a CLEAN flanker.

What has the J20 demonstrated?


Which Flanker though? The SU-27, the SU-30 or the SU-35?
Offline

gta4

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 890
  • Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 19:10

Unread post18 Jun 2018, 16:13

mixelflick wrote:
gta4 wrote:Welcome to get back to the debate.

I seriously suspect a F35 can solo 2 or even more J20s close in.

In the horizontal, the F35 snaps around on a dime (J turn).

In the vertical, it loops extremely tight, and all pilots interviewed admitts F35 is on par with F15/16 in a climbing battle. (2016 report. F15/16 jettision their external stores)

It does not need to worry about energy because it recovers energy 20% faster than a CLEAN flanker.

What has the J20 demonstrated?


Which Flanker though? The SU-27, the SU-30 or the SU-35?


20% better than Su27.

20+% better than Su30 because Su30 is heavier and still uses the same engine.

10% better than Su35.

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=52510
Offline

gta4

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 890
  • Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 19:10

Unread post18 Jun 2018, 18:58

A computer simulation of close range gun fight between aircraft A and B.

Aircraft A: has far better conventional turn capability than fulcrums and flankers (aircraft A can acheive almost 30 deg/sec SUSTAINED!)
Aircraft B: similar to F-35, it can perform J-turn. However its other performances are inferior to F-35. Its T/W is only 0.75.

Result: Aircraft B dominates the dogfight. Even we give some initial positional advantage to A for free, this advantage is quickly neutrlized in less than one turn.

FULL PDF:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=54146

@garrya Yes this maneuver can be countered by going vertical. However F-35 welcomes any jet to fight in the vertical. F-35 itself is a very tough player in the vertical.
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3534
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown

Unread post19 Jun 2018, 14:37

gta4 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
gta4 wrote:Welcome to get back to the debate.

I seriously suspect a F35 can solo 2 or even more J20s close in.

In the horizontal, the F35 snaps around on a dime (J turn).

In the vertical, it loops extremely tight, and all pilots interviewed admitts F35 is on par with F15/16 in a climbing battle. (2016 report. F15/16 jettision their external stores)

It does not need to worry about energy because it recovers energy 20% faster than a CLEAN flanker.

What has the J20 demonstrated?


Which Flanker though? The SU-27, the SU-30 or the SU-35?


20% better than Su27.

20+% better than Su30 because Su30 is heavier and still uses the same engine.

10% better than Su35.

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=52510


Great info. Thanks! :)
Offline

swiss

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 450
  • Joined: 10 Jan 2017, 14:43

Unread post19 Jun 2018, 16:48

Image

Image

I think this two Pictures shows, that the Chinese still have a way to go. Even for "simple" things like the glass design for the EOTS.
Online

SpudmanWP

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 8400
  • Joined: 12 Oct 2006, 19:18
  • Location: California

Unread post19 Jun 2018, 20:28

The J-20's "EOTS" can only see forward.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
Offline

gta4

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 890
  • Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 19:10

Unread post20 Jun 2018, 04:01

1) J-20 lacks rear hemisphere targeting.
2) J-20 lacks A-A missile that supports LOAL.
Offline

weasel1962

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1797
  • Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 02:41
  • Location: Singapore

Unread post20 Jun 2018, 09:55

J-20 EOTS may be more than forward hemisphere only since there are at least 6 identified locations for the EO sensors.

https://plarealtalk.com/j-20-sensors-an ... 69e9071495

As to LOAL capability, there seems to be a mistaken assumption that the PLA will send J-20s to dogfight with any plane (or for that matter that the USAF will send the F-35 to dogfight any plane, even though it can do that).

I'm not sure what is the basis for the confidence of what China does not have but what is definite that they have are PL-10 missiles which seems to have superceded R-73s as the PLAAF primary WVR missile. What is known about the PL-10 in open source can be googled or baidu-ed, Since most of the information is unverifiable, I would be surprised if anyone outside the PLAAF could say what they have or don't have with any degree of certainty.
Offline

gta4

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 890
  • Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 19:10

Unread post20 Jun 2018, 11:27

weasel1962 wrote:J-20 EOTS may be more than forward hemisphere only since there are at least 6 identified locations for the EO sensors.

https://plarealtalk.com/j-20-sensors-an ... 69e9071495

As to LOAL capability, there seems to be a mistaken assumption that the PLA will send J-20s to dogfight with any plane (or for that matter that the USAF will send the F-35 to dogfight any plane, even though it can do that).

I'm not sure what is the basis for the confidence of what China does not have but what is definite that they have are PL-10 missiles which seems to have superceded R-73s as the PLAAF primary WVR missile. What is known about the PL-10 in open source can be googled or baidu-ed, Since most of the information is unverifiable, I would be surprised if anyone outside the PLAAF could say what they have or don't have with any degree of certainty.


Correction: leaving space for EOTS installation does not mean it is already installed.
Online

SpudmanWP

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 8400
  • Joined: 12 Oct 2006, 19:18
  • Location: California

Unread post20 Jun 2018, 16:14

weasel1962 wrote:J-20 EOTS may be more than forward hemisphere only since there are at least 6 identified locations for the EO sensors.

This is no different than the pairing of EOTS and EODAS on the F-35. The F-35's EOTS is used for long ranged IRST and for to act as a LTP for designating and guiding laser guided munitions. The F-35's EOTS can see to the front, sides, below, and to the rear of the F-35. EODAS is only used for relatively short ranged (WVR) tracking of targets and is very limited in it's ability to ID a target. It cannot be used to guide a laser guided munition.

Image

The J-20's version of EOTS, on the other hand, cannot see below, extreme sides, bottom, or to the rear. If they added LTP functionality to it this means that it cannot designate for it's own bombs.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
Offline

gta4

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 890
  • Joined: 17 Oct 2010, 19:10

Unread post01 Aug 2018, 03:45

Something embarassing after the RIAT dispaly:
After seeing these maneuvers:
F-35 turn and climb small.gif

Lots of Chinese J-20 fanboys are enraged. They sped up J-20 maneuver video by 80% intentionally to compete against F-35, hoping no one had seen the original video.

However, the original video was found, almost immediately.
Last edited by gta4 on 01 Aug 2018, 07:06, edited 1 time in total.
Offline
User avatar

popcorn

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 7707
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2008, 08:55

Unread post01 Aug 2018, 06:08

Fancy editing in lieu of fancy flying? LOL
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
PreviousNext

Return to F-35 versus XYZ

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests