J-20 VERSUS F-35

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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gta4

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Unread post17 Jun 2018, 01:31

Energy,USAF Test Pilot School Flight Test Manual Vol.1 chapter 9

F15C post msip, 4 sparrows 4 aim9s 50%fuel, 40033lbs.
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gta4

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Unread post17 Jun 2018, 01:34

fbw wrote:
gta4 wrote:Sorry man, there is no strict OEW deffination. It may vary with different aircrafts.

I have plenty of F16 flight manual showing OEM with missiles and launchers.



Ok, refer to your first post. Do you still think the F-15C weighs under 30,000lbs empty/dry? If so, I can’t help you.

P.s. adding the wing pylons and C/L pylon add over 1,000 lbs.


it is over 30000lbs doesnt mean it exceeds 31000lbs without missiles and launchers.
Last edited by gta4 on 17 Jun 2018, 01:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post17 Jun 2018, 01:40

So I have proven that a post msip F15C with 2 tripple launchers and pilot and everything else is 30550 lbs.
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fbw

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Unread post17 Jun 2018, 02:07

gta4 wrote:So I have proven that a post msip F15C with 2 tripple launchers and pilot and everything else is 30550 lbs.


Is there something wrong with your head II should know about? You’ve so far proven yourself wrong several times over.
1. “The F-15C weighs 28,400lbs”- based on a flight manual what from 30 years ago? Now I listed a short incomplete list of updates since then. Do you think those were weight neutral?

2. You then state empty weight is 30,700lbs based on “multiple sources”...and posted none.

3. You tell me to give you proof, I do. FROM the USAF. I also tell you to cross reference that with the F-15E fact sheet and flight manual because, surprise! The USAF knows what their aircraft weigh and what OEW means.

4. You now come back with this? 30,550lbs? What happened to your “multiple source 30,700lbs?

Sorry to break it to you. You started out deep in the hole and have just switched out for a bigger shovel. Enough.

I mean if you want to sound more authoritative you can always throw “pedal turn” in there in another of your posts. It would complete the irony since I was the one who explained to you what that meant.
Back to my original statement “The F-15C has not weighed under 30,000lbs empty for a long time”. Nothing else needed to be said. It is correct, stop wasting time and room.
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weasel1962

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Unread post17 Jun 2018, 02:34

fbw, i see you got the same treatment from gta4 as i did. In my case, he asked for research papers which I did and guess what, he stil insists he is right without posting even a link in his case.

My suggestion is dont bother arguing with him. Your facts are already noted.
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gta4

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Unread post17 Jun 2018, 02:39

weasel1962 wrote:fbw, i see you got the same treatment from gta4 as i did. In my case, he asked for research papers which I did and guess what, he stil insists he is right without posting even a link in his case.

My suggestion is dont bother arguing with him. Your facts are already noted.


Your have no idea what research paper is. It needs peer review.
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gta4

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Unread post17 Jun 2018, 02:41

fbw wrote:
gta4 wrote:So I have proven that a post msip F15C with 2 tripple launchers and pilot and everything else is 30550 lbs.


Is there something wrong with your head II should know about? You’ve so far proven yourself wrong several times over.
1. “The F-15C weighs 28,400lbs”- based on a flight manual what from 30 years ago? Now I listed a short incomplete list of updates since then. Do you think those were weight neutral?

2. You then state empty weight is 30,700lbs based on “multiple sources”...and posted none.

3. You tell me to give you proof, I do. FROM the USAF. I also tell you to cross reference that with the F-15E fact sheet and flight manual because, surprise! The USAF knows what their aircraft weigh and what OEW means.

4. You now come back with this? 30,550lbs? What happened to your “multiple source 30,700lbs?

Sorry to break it to you. You started out deep in the hole and have just switched out for a bigger shovel. Enough.

I mean if you want to sound more authoritative you can always throw “pedal turn” in there in another of your posts. It would complete the irony since I was the one who explained to you what that meant.
Back to my original statement “The F-15C has not weighed under 30,000lbs empty for a long time”. Nothing else needed to be said. It is correct, stop wasting time and room.


30550 is very close to 30700, and I have given what 30550 includes, while you cannot give what 31700 includes.
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gta4

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Unread post17 Jun 2018, 02:45

If 31700 is without pilot, pylons and launchers, that contradicts the total flying weight given by USAF test report.
Last edited by gta4 on 17 Jun 2018, 02:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post17 Jun 2018, 02:52

gta4 wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:fbw, i see you got the same treatment from gta4 as i did. In my case, he asked for research papers which I did and guess what, he stil insists he is right without posting even a link in his case.

My suggestion is dont bother arguing with him. Your facts are already noted.


Your have no idea what research paper is. It needs peer review.


Actually no, it does not. Nevertheless, how do you know it was not peer-reviewed? Expecting proof from you is an exercise in futility.

gta4 wrote:If 31700 is without pilot, pylons and launchers, that contradicts the total flying weight given by USAF test report.


Like fbw said, you have no idea with OEW means.
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gta4

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Unread post17 Jun 2018, 02:53

weasel1962 wrote:
gta4 wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:fbw, i see you got the same treatment from gta4 as i did. In my case, he asked for research papers which I did and guess what, he stil insists he is right without posting even a link in his case.

My suggestion is dont bother arguing with him. Your facts are already noted.


Your have no idea what research paper is. It needs peer review.


Actually no, it does not. Nevertheless, how do you know it was not peer-reviewed? Expecting proof from you is an exercise in futility.


Does the estimation come with an error range? If no, it means nothing.
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Unread post17 Jun 2018, 03:05

gta4 wrote:Does the estimation come with an error range? If no, it means nothing.


Like I said, expecting proof from you is an exercise in futility. Just trying to deflect from the issue with more questions. Since when must a volumetric analysis throw up an error range? LxHxB must give an exact amount unless L,H or B have a range themselves, right? Simple math.
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gta4

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Unread post17 Jun 2018, 03:33

weasel1962 wrote:
gta4 wrote:Does the estimation come with an error range? If no, it means nothing.


Like I said, expecting proof from you is an exercise in futility. Just trying to deflect from the issue with more questions. Since when must a volumetric analysis throw up an error range? LxHxB must give an exact amount unless L,H or B have a range themselves, right? Simple math.


Then you need to give the distribution of the estimation.

I doubt you know the distribution function, though
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gta4

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Unread post17 Jun 2018, 03:35

weasel1962 wrote:
gta4 wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:fbw, i see you got the same treatment from gta4 as i did. In my case, he asked for research papers which I did and guess what, he stil insists he is right without posting even a link in his case.

My suggestion is dont bother arguing with him. Your facts are already noted.


Your have no idea what research paper is. It needs peer review.


Actually no, it does not. Nevertheless, how do you know it was not peer-reviewed? Expecting proof from you is an exercise in futility.

gta4 wrote:If 31700 is without pilot, pylons and launchers, that contradicts the total flying weight given by USAF test report.


Like fbw said, you have no idea with OEW means.


If this paper is reviewed carefully, a mistake will be pointed out immediately:

The structual weight of estimated J20 is even inferior than the much smaller F35, which is absurd.
Last edited by gta4 on 17 Jun 2018, 03:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post17 Jun 2018, 03:41

Another proof of why 31700 lbs cannot be used to calculate t/w ratio directly:

If 31700 lbs is used to calculate T/W directly, F15C will have lower T/W than F35A, which contradicts a survey based on 31 usaf pilots (year: 2016)

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=52503
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Unread post17 Jun 2018, 04:06

gta4 wrote:Another proof of why 31700 lbs cannot be used to calculate t/w ratio directly:

If 31700 lbs is used to calculate T/W directly, F15C will have lower T/W than F35A, which contradicts a survey based on 31 usaf pilots (year: 2016)


Welcome to the debate about 20 years late. The detractors of the F-35 have been highlighting that the TW of the F-35 is not as good as 3G fighters due to the heavy weight of the F-35 hence proponents of keeping F-22 in production. That's why the RAAF and whole carlo kopp saga of RAAF should not buy F-35 but F-22 instead.... But eventually the F-22 production was terminated with the counter-argument, that a simple TW measurement cannot be utilised due to the drag of external fuel tanks, munitions, even discounting stealth.

The F-15E has a clean performance that is probably better than the F-35. In combat conditions, the difference is not so noticeable at the combat radius the USAF intends to operate under. The J-20 has the advantage of twin engines like the F-15E with no drag caused by external carriage.

One biggie was that the Chinese had little access to carbon fibers to enable light weight construction but chinese espionage cannot be underestimated. Carbon fiber imports are one of the items on embargo since day 1. Yet T-800 commericla production started in China in limited quantities in 2012 and went big by 2016. J-20 production started serial production at end 2015, coincidence? Notwithstanding that T1000 is now what US is capable of, the older F-22s and F-35s are build, I think with T-800s. Eventually a 6Gen fighter would take advantage of that but the Chinese are not that far behind.

Just a few days ago, announcement on the use of T-800 for helo and just before that 50+% for CR929 construction.

And a few months back T1000 production in China
https://www.yicaiglobal.com/content/china’s-own-100-ton-t1000-carbon-fiber-production-line-goes-operation
Last edited by weasel1962 on 17 Jun 2018, 04:17, edited 1 time in total.
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