J-20 VERSUS F-35

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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elvis1

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Unread post04 Aug 2018, 03:02

sferrin wrote: China isn't Russia.


My vote for "quote of the day"
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gta4

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Unread post04 Aug 2018, 06:18

sferrin wrote:[
Could be but the intent is definitely to have a setup similar to the F-35. I certainly wouldn't discount them. China isn't Russia.


Intention is not always realizable.

Similar shape does not equal to similar performance.

We have lots of examples from China.

(i.e. The Yilong 2 drone looks like MQ9 reaper, but with significantly lower performance.)
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Unread post07 Aug 2018, 11:16

gta4 wrote:
sferrin wrote:[
Could be but the intent is definitely to have a setup similar to the F-35. I certainly wouldn't discount them. China isn't Russia.


Intention is not always realizable.

Similar shape does not equal to similar performance.

We have lots of examples from China.

(i.e. The Yilong 2 drone looks like MQ9 reaper, but with significantly lower performance.)


Definitely this. Even the best Chinese thermal imaging systems are far behind those developed and in use in USA. They simply lack the technology to manufacture required components. It's also not just the sensors themselves, but the overall infrastructure they must be connected to achieve real capability. They need very high-speed databuses to transmit the data to very capable signal processing and computing system. If the sensors are just simple missile launch detectors then they don't need nearly as much, but they also don't offer nearly the performance as EO DAS in F-35.

I also wonder what kind of sensor fusion system they can have developed as that's not easy to do and requires quite a lot of development work and powerful computing and networking system.
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ricnunes

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Unread post09 Aug 2018, 01:21

sferrin wrote:
ricnunes wrote:I could be wrong but I wouldn't be surprised if that J-20 "EOTS" is actually a "simple IRST" instead of something more comprehensive as we see in the F-35 (EOS/TGP+IRST).
The forward centered aspect of that thing could IMO indicate this.


The F-35s IRST is mounted in a similar position.


The point is that the F-35 "IRST" isn't only an IRST. Like Spudman said it's a FLIR/IRST "combo" which can see/look "backwards". Now looking at the pic shared by dragon the similar mount on the J-20 seems to be able to look forwards only (with limited sideways capability) hence why I believe that such mount on the J-20 is an IRST only.


sferrin wrote:The J-20 also has the little windows for it's EOTS scattered about it's airframe as the F-35 does.


Those IMO, I believe are missile launch detectors (MLD) and not DAS like the F-35. Perhaps those J-20 sensors could have a limited air-to-air capability against aircraft but certainly nothing "too fancy" like the air-to-ground and navigation capabilities of the F-35 DAS.
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sferrin

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Unread post09 Aug 2018, 12:54

gta4 wrote:
sferrin wrote:[
Could be but the intent is definitely to have a setup similar to the F-35. I certainly wouldn't discount them. China isn't Russia.


Intention is not always realizable.

Similar shape does not equal to similar performance.

We have lots of examples from China.

(i.e. The Yilong 2 drone looks like MQ9 reaper, but with significantly lower performance.)


Sure. But China is pouring WAY more money into defense hardware than the US is and they're making rapid advances. Keep in mind, your iPhone ain't made in America. Neither are your monitors, cameras, etc. etc. etc. China has almost twice the number of supercomputers in the Top 500 as the US. Ten years ago the US had more than everybody else put together on that list. Assuming China can't do what the US is doing is a recipe for disaster.
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Unread post09 Aug 2018, 13:53

That's one of the benefits of having not built nor had to maintain a legacy of such a preponerous special-munitions force. More money for conventional forces. They have a structural advantage there.
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ricnunes

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Unread post09 Aug 2018, 15:06

sferrin wrote:Keep in mind, your iPhone ain't made in America. Neither are your monitors, cameras, etc. etc. etc.


Well, neither is the iPhone made exclusively in China. Here:
https://www.lifewire.com/where-is-the-i ... de-1999503

Moreover development, design and operating systems (software) which requires actual "know-how" is actually made in the USA.
I believe that "know-how" is the key word here. Despite all China's recent technological advancements, China still falls short compared to the USA or even the western world in terms of producing "know-how". For example how many US researchers and engineers move to China to produce knowledge? Now compare vice-versa...
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sferrin

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Unread post09 Aug 2018, 17:13

ricnunes wrote:
sferrin wrote:Keep in mind, your iPhone ain't made in America. Neither are your monitors, cameras, etc. etc. etc.


Well, neither is the iPhone made exclusively in China. Here:
https://www.lifewire.com/where-is-the-i ... de-1999503

Moreover development, design and operating systems (software) which requires actual "know-how" is actually made in the USA.
I believe that "know-how" is the key word here. Despite all China's recent technological advancements, China still falls short compared to the USA or even the western world in terms of producing "know-how". For example how many US researchers and engineers move to China to produce knowledge? Now compare vice-versa...


The need for "know-how" doesn't end with design. All the design expertise in the world isn't worth much if you can't build it. There are Chinese-made chips in US weapons systems. If China decided to turn off the tap we'd be up $hit creek. Think about that.
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ricnunes

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Unread post09 Aug 2018, 20:59

sferrin wrote:The need for "know-how" doesn't end with design. All the design expertise in the world isn't worth much if you can't build it. There are Chinese-made chips in US weapons systems. If China decided to turn off the tap we'd be up $hit creek. Think about that.


Well, don't forget that:
1- the US/west still have and will have manufacturing facilities. They don't produce in mass like in the past because of cost factors but design expertise is still and will continue to be based on the US/west.
2- it's much easier to transition from "know-how" to full manufacturing than vice versa. Resuming, China knows how to manufacture electronics in full scale but designing brand new electronics and develop controlling software (purely based on "know-how"") is a "different beast".
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sferrin

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Unread post09 Aug 2018, 22:49

ricnunes wrote:
sferrin wrote:The need for "know-how" doesn't end with design. All the design expertise in the world isn't worth much if you can't build it. There are Chinese-made chips in US weapons systems. If China decided to turn off the tap we'd be up $hit creek. Think about that.


Well, don't forget that:
1- the US/west still have and will have manufacturing facilities. They don't produce in mass like in the past because of cost factors but design expertise is still and will continue to be based on the US/west.
2- it's much easier to transition from "know-how" to full manufacturing than vice versa. Resuming, China knows how to manufacture electronics in full scale but designing brand new electronics and develop controlling software (purely based on "know-how"") is a "different beast".


Why would you assume China isn't any good at software?
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elvis1

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Unread post10 Aug 2018, 02:49

China is run by a person trained as a Chemical Engineer--China is now destined to rule the World.
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Unread post10 Aug 2018, 09:49

sferrin wrote:
gta4 wrote:
sferrin wrote:[
Could be but the intent is definitely to have a setup similar to the F-35. I certainly wouldn't discount them. China isn't Russia.


Intention is not always realizable.

Similar shape does not equal to similar performance.

We have lots of examples from China.

(i.e. The Yilong 2 drone looks like MQ9 reaper, but with significantly lower performance.)


Sure. But China is pouring WAY more money into defense hardware than the US is and they're making rapid advances. Keep in mind, your iPhone ain't made in America. Neither are your monitors, cameras, etc. etc. etc. China has almost twice the number of supercomputers in the Top 500 as the US. Ten years ago the US had more than everybody else put together on that list. Assuming China can't do what the US is doing is a recipe for disaster.


Not making Iphone doesn't prove anything. Because US is making products that incorporate much more high tech features than IPhone.

Suppose we have two products, A and B, A incorporates much more high tech features than B, then making A is much more convincing than making B.
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Unread post10 Aug 2018, 12:18

China can't even make a jet engine that has similar reliability compared to Western ones. This is technology the West has had since the 80s and 90s. While China is making strides, they are still behind and aren't going to be comparable to Western standards, especially for even more advanced meta-materials like RAM coating.
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sferrin

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Unread post10 Aug 2018, 13:02

kimjongnumbaun wrote:China can't even make a jet engine that has similar reliability compared to Western ones. This is technology the West has had since the 80s and 90s. While China is making strides, they are still behind and aren't going to be comparable to Western standards, especially for even more advanced meta-materials like RAM coating.


Jet engines are not electronics. South Korea and Japan don't build world class fighter engines either. I guess they suck at electronics too. :roll:
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Unread post10 Aug 2018, 13:03

gta4 wrote:Not making Iphone doesn't prove anything. Because US is making products that incorporate much more high tech features than IPhone.


Such as?
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