F-35 vs all non-thrust vectored fighter jets

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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gta4

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Unread post26 Jun 2017, 04:25

Obviously, the mongo flip has driven someone crazy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc5mo18ShJA
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fastestbird

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Unread post26 Jun 2017, 13:33

gta4 wrote:Obviously, the mongo flip has driven someone crazy...


Great!

Have you made those video comparisons?
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mixelflick

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Unread post26 Jun 2017, 14:11

The Super Hornet is capable of some near thrust vectoring like maneuvers, but not like this. In fact, I can't think of another non thrust vectoring jet that even comes close to this. The decision to go all in on F-35 development/production feels a lot better today vs. just a few months ago.

Special thanks to whoever it was here that put together those "busting myths" videos. They started to tun the tide long ago, and this recent flight demo just builds on that.
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lbk000

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Unread post26 Jun 2017, 14:22

mixelflick wrote:Special thanks to whoever it was here that put together those "busting myths" videos.

Dragon029 is a regular in here :D
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gta4

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Unread post26 Jun 2017, 14:39

fastestbird wrote:
gta4 wrote:Obviously, the mongo flip has driven someone crazy...


Great!

Have you made those video comparisons?

Nope...putting two videos side by side requires some software techniques.
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vilters

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Unread post26 Jun 2017, 20:46

The low airspeed, high AOA, nose pointing capabilities are phenomenal.
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gta4

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Unread post05 Jul 2017, 18:48

Look at how it loops near 270 deg in 9 seconds.
Look at the initial pitch rate at the first second.
Image

https://youtu.be/S85cyE-BIJQ
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post06 Jul 2017, 02:43

It's much closer to 180 in nine seconds. The reason it looks like near 270 is the same reason why that first second had so much pitch change, 50+ deg AoA.
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fastestbird

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Unread post25 Jul 2017, 00:57

gta4 wrote:Nope...putting two videos side by side requires some software techniques.


You should consider yourself lucky then, because the guy ho did made them is one sick dude!

hornetfinn wrote:Very nice comparison, thank you!
To me it seems like F-35 has even more power than what the public figures suggest.


And you consider yourself a serious poster?

Almost every single video this guy has made is fabricated and staged to make look US fighters dominant in every single discipline. Even with basic military aviation knowledge one could see that clearly!
But since you are a fanboy it is not to hard for me to imagine why you like this comparisons that much ;)

Similar video could be made of the takeoff. I was truly impressed at how fast F-35 took off and went immediately to a very steep, almost vertical climb. I don't think I've seen any other fighter aircraft do that in quite similar manner. Even F-22 and Eurofighter usually seem to gain some speed before going to vertical.


That is because you are one sided and don't care much about anything that is not US-made.

Take a look at this for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3zX4QI-BT4&t=75s

Look at the take off distance and the time on the afterburner before rotation. It took only few seconds on full afterburner for the plane to lift off and go to vertical with enough fuel for much longer and complex demo and you think F-35 take off is something special?

gta4 wrote:The most spectacular thing is that the vertical climb was done in military power, no afterburner.


This is the basic example how this joker is manipulating the videos.

He took this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKKpUv_qlC0&t=0s where we can see at 5:36 that F-35 is doing the touch down and going up again. He cut the part before the plane is touching the ground and he labeled the video with the deceptive title "F-35 vertical take-off without afterburner. Beats Russian fighters".

In reality the plane is not taking off ;)

In any case this is not something extraordinary. Take a look at some very big planes that don't even have afterburners:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji1_fo2XF6A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiiKVg7jYg4

You also have videos where PAK-FA is taking off and going to vertical on military power only.

nutshell wrote:The LM's pilot had an interview prior his exhibition saying the F35A would perform in a heavy load set up, while normally, airshows aircraft tend to fly clean and with low fuel. If that's true, the F35A is a puzzle idiotically hard to solve.


Not at all, there is no puzzle to be solved ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0On-GMTSWvc

Look at 10:07

The plane was in fact in fairly light configuration. There is nothing "heavy and combat representative" associated with this demo (weapon bays were also empty).

gta4 wrote:
armedupdate wrote:Any Rafale comparison?


As far as what the video shows:

1) 360 roll rate
F-35 has significantly higher roll rate in this video:
https://youtu.be/_DzqERHh7Tg?t=12s


Of course it does, when you speed up the video you get such results ;)

I thought that was more than obvious?

2) vertical loop
F-35 has significantly higher angular velocity in the vertical. In fact it out-rates any non-thrust-vectored jet to the best of my knowledge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sf1H94FEME


This is the most common thing this joker is doing.

In this case he is comparing classical high G loop (the Su-27 is performing) with post-stall nose pointing loop (F-35 is performing).

Two very different things ;)

You should also make a difference between angular velocity (turn rate) and nose pointing velocity (pitch rate). Both are measured in degrees per second but are two different things.
In this case, at the and of the power loop F-35 has low turn rate (low energy state) but it has very nice pitch rate and nose pointing capability.

But if you really want to compare apples to apples take a look at this video at 0:58:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ1FP6t5XzA#t=31.84826

You take and measure the time both planes need to finish 180 deg loop and look at the turn radius. The difference is obvious ;)

3) Horizontal 360 turn
The rafale may seem to take longer time in the horizontal 360 turn, but there is a roll in the middle of the maneuver. If you take that off you can see both jets have similar horizontal 360 turn time.


It is almost certain that Rafale has better sustained and instantaneous turn rate as is the fact that F-35 has better nose pointing capability at high AoA.

4) post-stall maneuver, such as pedal turn
Rafale doesn't have any kind of high AOA capability.


It is true that Rafale can't do the pedal turn the way F-35 can, but it has enough high AoA capability to stay competitive even against the F-22.

gta4 wrote:Obviously, the mongo flip has driven someone crazy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc5mo18ShJA


Again, the joker is manipulating the videos :mrgreen:

You can notice how he didn't finish the whole loop sequence for both planes. There are two reasons for that.

The first is the possibility that he was using the PAK-FA sequence that is not representing the real power loop.

Here is the second reason:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trtNvf-QHMU

Look at 35:30

You can measure the time both planes finish 180 deg in the loop (but you will have to use other F-35 video where the plane turns more angle) because this is the most accurate way to do it from visual stand of point. The plane points straight up at the bigining of the loop and it points strait down at the end of 180 deg turn.

There is no dilema what plane can finish 180 deg faster and with smaller radius ;)

And he is bragging all the time how F-35 is limited to 7G and is not aware of the fact that PAK-FA is limited to 5G. Even that is irrelevant for power loop comparison because you are not going to be nowhere near the 7G limit (and 5G limit for that matter).

mixelflick wrote:The Super Hornet is capable of some near thrust vectoring like maneuvers, but not like this. In fact, I can't think of another non thrust vectoring jet that even comes close to this. The decision to go all in on F-35 development/production feels a lot better today vs. just a few months ago.


Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYKWMXAfKRA&t=0s

Old Su-35 (it is actually Su-37 without TVC) could do the same stuff and much more. The same control laws are used for Su-30MKI in perfected form. In other words, all Su-30MKI variants can perform similar maneuvers without TVC. According to Russian ingenieurs PAK FA can do all post stall maneuvers wihtout TVC, just at slower rate.

Special thanks to whoever it was here that put together those "busting myths" videos. They started to tun the tide long ago, and this recent flight demo just builds on that.


You are thanking to a seriously disturbed person that has manipulated every single video to make himself feel good. The guy needs help and you can point out to any video and I will be happy to show you what he did to lie the people that have little knowledge about the subject.
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lbk000

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Unread post25 Jul 2017, 01:05

busting myths is a series made by dragon029, don't get ahead of yourself.
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fastestbird

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Unread post25 Jul 2017, 03:12

lbk000 wrote:busting myths is a series made by dragon029, don't get ahead of yourself.


If you have something to say that would dispute what I have said be my guest, other than that, I don't have the slightest clue what are you talking about?

I don't know who the dragon029 is and I have never mentioned him?
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Prinz_Eugn

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Unread post25 Jul 2017, 03:35

I'm also a little skeptical of these video comparisons, especially with professionally edited marketing footage being taken at face value when there's a pretty good chance some guy was tweaking the original footage to fit in what basically amounts to a commercial. For the airshows there's other factors like weights they decided to pick or fuzzy factors of safety approaching the ends of the envelope that might vary company to company (or pilot to pilot), not to mention the fact they are consciously trying to put on a good show for a pretty wide audience and might choose to do something slower/faster just because they think it looks cool.

Obviously, some are surprised that the F-35 can do cool stuff at all, so the airshow demos are evidence of that, but I think trying to draw deeper conclusions by comparing them to demos from other aircraft is barking up the wrong tree.
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Unread post25 Jul 2017, 12:28

fastestbird wrote:
gta4 wrote:Nope...putting two videos side by side requires some software techniques.


You should consider yourself lucky then, because the guy ho did made them is one sick dude!

hornetfinn wrote:Very nice comparison, thank you!
To me it seems like F-35 has even more power than what the public figures suggest.


And you consider yourself a serious poster?

Almost every single video this guy has made is fabricated and staged to make look US fighters dominant in every single discipline. Even with basic military aviation knowledge one could see that clearly!
But since you are a fanboy it is not to hard for me to imagine why you like this comparisons that much ;)

Similar video could be made of the takeoff. I was truly impressed at how fast F-35 took off and went immediately to a very steep, almost vertical climb. I don't think I've seen any other fighter aircraft do that in quite similar manner. Even F-22 and Eurofighter usually seem to gain some speed before going to vertical.


That is because you are one sided and don't care much about anything that is not US-made.

Take a look at this for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3zX4QI-BT4&t=75s

Look at the take off distance and the time on the afterburner before rotation. It took only few seconds on full afterburner for the plane to lift off and go to vertical with enough fuel for much longer and complex demo and you think F-35 take off is something special?


Sure, but at that point Su-35 already had quite a lot of speed from accelerating on dry thrust for about 10 seconds and thus the time on AB was very short. It was impressive for sure, but IMO not really much more so than what F-35 did. I'd call them very equal as it seemed to take almost identical time from rotation to full vertical and first maneuver. Btw, it seems like Su-35s always do this kind of rolling start with quite long roll before hitting AB. Why would that be, to lower fatigue?

Su-35 is extremely powerful and maneuverable aircraft, just like F-22 is and does very impressive air shows, especially doing somersaults etc. F-22 (and F-35) definitely seems more snappy of the two with Su-35 (and PAK FA) seeming more ponderous in many maneuvers. I find it very interesting that F-35 is so competitive with both in power and maneuverability despite having just single engine and no TVC and having easily the most comprehensive avionics suite of them all with very unique capabilities.

And why all the personal attacks towards everybody?
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Unread post25 Jul 2017, 12:41

It is known that guy sped up some of his videos to fit his narrative.

But some of them are quite legit.

Anyway, let's go back to square 1: non tvc single engine fighrer vs twin engine TVC.
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Unread post25 Jul 2017, 13:20

The advantages of TV are well known through years of testing with various platforms such as MATV, X-31, F-22 etc - however the advantages clearly do not outweigh the disadvantages - or to put it another way the designers or anyone else that matters don't appear to think it has any relevance in most tactical situations.
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