Cornering speed

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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gta4

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Unread post02 May 2017, 02:53

This paper explains the difference of F18C/D and F18E/F in high alpha:
http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRec ... =ADP011127
Generally, both have similar initial turn rate, but F18E/F could maintain that high alpha for longer time, resulting in more angle in total turn. F18E/F is also controlled more smoothly and accurately.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post02 May 2017, 03:33

Thanks for link 'gta4'.
Operational Lessons Learned from the F/A-18E/F Total Flight Control Systems Integration Process
Jun 2001 Mr. Robert J. Hanley; Commander David A. Dunaway; Mr. Kenneth P. Lawson

"Abstract:
The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is a growth version of the F/A-18 A through D model 'heritage' Hornet, first fielded in 1983. Sone of the primary design goals for the Super Hornet, included increasing the range, providing greater weapon loading flexibility increasing carrier landing bring back weight and improving survivability. Improving the survivability was addressed in various ways including reductions in radar cross section expanded self-protection systems, and enhanced maneuverability. The heritage Hornet, was the first tactical aircraft in the world to fully exploit high Angle of Attack (AOA) maneuvering in the air combat environment. The heritage Hornet, is widely known for its ability to attain and maintain high angles of attack providing the pilot with a distinct advantage in the low airspeed, high AOA arena. Hornet pilots have achieved great success by simply 'intimidating' threat aircrews. This intimidation can cause threat pilots to make grave tactical maneuvering errors in this flight regime. Despite these capabilities the heritage Hornet, has had a history of inadvertent departures from controlled flight mostly in the low speed high AOA flight regime. Heritage Hornet, pilots must always maintain situational awareness of their aircraft state (aircraft store loading in combination with perceived yaw rate and sideslip AOA and airspeed) to ensure they do not inadvertently cause one of these departures. One of the primary goals for improving the Super Hornet's maneuverability included addressing the total systems design and integration of the Flight Control System (FCS), Operational Flight Program (OFP), and Mission Computers (MC) in order to optimize the control effectors in all phases of flight, including failure modes and battle damage."

Source: http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Lo ... =ADP011127 (PDF 1.5Mb)
Attachments
SuperHornet to Hornet PlanFormComparo.gif
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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mixelflick

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Unread post02 May 2017, 16:06

As much as I want to see the Hornet retired, I have to admit - the SH puts on an amazing demo whenever I've seen it. There was a demo (forget where) where it flew with a pretty robust air to air loadout - 6 AIM-120's and 2 9x's and you'd swear it had thrust vectoring capability.

Having said that, I'm excited to see the F-35 perform when the gloves come off..
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blindpilot

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Unread post02 May 2017, 16:43

Just a little reminder on what F-22 (and F-35) pilots have been saying about super manueverability/speed/acceleration etc. vs 5th Gen dog fighting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DzcOCyHDqc

Just saying. Yeah love those air shows ... but your point is?
BP
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neptune

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Unread post02 May 2017, 17:00

blindpilot wrote:Just a little reminder on what F-22 (and F-35) pilots have been saying about super manueverability/speed/acceleration etc. vs 5th Gen dog fighting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DzcOCyHDqc

Just saying. Yeah love those air shows ... but your point is?
BP



.....now that you mention it!, what exactly is the cornering speed of.....an AIM-9X or AIM-120D and/ or two of each?

....didn't dancing in the sky only confirm your IR image?

.....perhaps the greatest fighter a/c of all time would be the XB-70 traveling at Mach 3 and lobbing off a 100 or so, Mach 3 AIM-120s as it sashays down the yellow brick road, ....or not?
:doh:
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gta4

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Unread post02 May 2017, 17:20

mixelflick wrote:As much as I want to see the Hornet retired, I have to admit - the SH puts on an amazing demo whenever I've seen it. There was a demo (forget where) where it flew with a pretty robust air to air loadout - 6 AIM-120's and 2 9x's and you'd swear it had thrust vectoring capability.

Having said that, I'm excited to see the F-35 perform when the gloves come off..


I remember F-18F performed the pirouette with a fuel tank:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH3mWoN6mT0

Check 1:45. I was amazed that it has no thrust vectoring
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steve2267

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Unread post02 May 2017, 22:27

Yeah, that pirouette was impressive! My very rough -- by eye -- calculation suggested 270° rotation in about six seconds -- 45°/sec !?!?.

Now if the F-35 can perform the same maneuver (or very similar), but the pilot will NOT lose sight of his prey with the 360° view from DAS/HMDS... he can spiral down on his prey from above like a... raptor! (Maybe the F-35 / F-22 are misnamed? OR the Raptor really needs its own DAS/HMDS. To wish... to wish...)
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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quicksilver

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Unread post03 May 2017, 00:51

In nose roll spirals around the aircraft velocity vector, the lower the aoa, the more the turn rate begins to approximate aircraft roll rate. Well-flown Hornets can be very good in nose low scissors on the pivot point of an adversaries turn circle. The 1:45ish section of the video suggests why.
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f-16adf

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Unread post03 May 2017, 00:52

Many people underestimate the F/A-18E/F. I was at Thunder Over Michigan last year, and the guys from VFA-122 put on an absolutely incredible show. They also kindly answered all my questions ((at least the non classified)).

That jet can pretty much stand on its tail, fly at incredibly high Alpha, perform the pirouette; And most remarkable of all, it can execute all those eye-watering maneuvers without needing thrust vectoring. It was very, very impressive and loud-

It seems like the only people who constantly dog that jet are the former Tomcat guys and the Grummanites (Grumman mafia and fanboys).
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quicksilver

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Unread post03 May 2017, 01:24

SH is a fine aircraft, but airshows don't really mean diddly beyond the marketing and the entertainment.
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gta4

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Unread post03 May 2017, 04:43

steve2267 wrote:Yeah, that pirouette was impressive! My very rough -- by eye -- calculation suggested 270° rotation in about six seconds -- 45°/sec !?!?.

Now if the F-35 can perform the same maneuver (or very similar), but the pilot will NOT lose sight of his prey with the 360° view from DAS/HMDS... he can spiral down on his prey from above like a... raptor! (Maybe the F-35 / F-22 are misnamed? OR the Raptor really needs its own DAS/HMDS. To wish... to wish...)


The pirouette was used exactly as what you think.

Image

Unless other high ITR fighters (such as mirage2000) that only excels in the first turn, super hornet has follow-up turns using pirouette.
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35_aoa

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Unread post03 May 2017, 06:30

quicksilver wrote:SH is a fine aircraft, but airshows don't really mean diddly beyond the marketing and the entertainment.


Yeah, the "demo" can probably be best summarized as a bunch of horizontal and vertical extensions leading back to either low alt flybys or low alt burner turns. They fly slick jets with light fuel loads, and have perfected a script first in the sim, and then out on the flight line during the off season. This demo has about as much relevance to combat as a burnout competition has to Indy racing. Good jets and well rehearsed pilots, but there are a lot of other factors in play in real life.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post03 May 2017, 09:32

I think the problem is that most people have only knowledge about what they see in airshows. Of course there are airshow routines with loaded aircraft also, but even then it's impossible to know if the EFTs are empty or even if those dummy weapons have realistic weight etc. Then the speeds and altitudes involved are not very representative to real world conditions.

I think Hornet and Super Hornet are generally somewhat underrated as fighters. Both have better performance levels than generally believed and both have very good avionics systems. No, they are not F-22 or F-35, but very capable 4th and 4th++ gen jets.
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mixelflick

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Unread post03 May 2017, 16:28

gta4 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:As much as I want to see the Hornet retired, I have to admit - the SH puts on an amazing demo whenever I've seen it. There was a demo (forget where) where it flew with a pretty robust air to air loadout - 6 AIM-120's and 2 9x's and you'd swear it had thrust vectoring capability.

Having said that, I'm excited to see the F-35 perform when the gloves come off..


I remember F-18F performed the pirouette with a fuel tank:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH3mWoN6mT0

Check 1:45. I was amazed that it has no thrust vectoring


Great video, thanks. As much as the SH "bugs" me I have to give credit where credit is due: It's a magnificent high alpha performer. I prefer the demo be flown with combat load, but understand why so few are in that instance. Let's just hope she's as impressive with combat load. I worry about the SH vs. XYZ scenario, because of her (real or perceived) shortcomings..

1.) Under powered
2.) Short legs
3.) "Nothing gets slower faster than a Hornet, and nothing gets faster slower than a Hornet"

I'm not sure if #3 is true. Perhaps someone who's flown it/other jets can compare...
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Unread post03 May 2017, 18:33

Most air show demo jets fly clean and generally with lower fuel. But give credit where credit is due. The SH and the legacy Hornet can do some pretty awesome things that most (or needing TV) cannot.
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