F-35B/C vs. F/A-18A-F or G

neptune · by **neptune** » 28 Oct 2016, 00:13

...I searched but haven/t found any accounts of the attack by F-35s on F-18 in an aggressor environment.

There are now numerous accounts of F-15/16 being swamped by F-35s but no accounts (that I can find) where the aggressor role is designated to an F-18.

Did I miss something or is the SBUG mafia begging off this competition.

....or is the Corp being nice and getting dug in with the Bee, before they start lobbing bricks over the wall?

...any help out there?

tincansailor · by **tincansailor** » 28 Oct 2016, 02:20

I haven't heard anything ether, but I would be surprised if the outcome was any different. The central factor in 4th vs 5th generation BVR combat is that the 4th generation fighter just can't detect the 5th generation fighter. The APG-79 Radar is apparently an excellent AESA radar, but it has the same problem any of the AESA radar on the F-15C has. They just don't find the F-35 until you already have a simulated AMRAAM in your face.

I'd be interested to know if the APG-77 on the F-22 can find the Lightning II at a useful range. From what I've read Raptors can't find each other until their well within AMRAAM range. If that's the case then Raptors or Ligntnings could only fight each other WVR. The big question would be can you even get a good radar lock for an ARHM shot, or even a SARH missile shot, at all but the shortest ranges.

That would be I would think highly classified information. That would leave it up to IR missiles, or guns. I understand the F-35 will be getting laser defenses to burn out IR seekers. Anyone know anything about those developments?

count_to_10 · by **count_to_10** » 28 Oct 2016, 02:54

tincansailor wrote:I haven't heard anything ether, but I would be surprised if the outcome was any different. The central factor in 4th vs 5th generation BVR combat is that the 4th generation fighter just can't detect the 5th generation fighter. The APG-79 Radar is apparently an excellent AESA radar, but it has the same problem any of the AESA radar on the F-15C has. They just don't find the F-35 until you already have a simulated AMRAAM in your face.

I'd be interested to know if the APG-77 on the F-22 can find the Lightning II at a useful range. From what I've read Raptors can't find each other until their well within AMRAAM range. If that's the case then Raptors or Ligntnings could only fight each other WVR. The big question would be can you even get a good radar lock for an ARHM shot, or even a SARH missile shot, at all but the shortest ranges.

That would be I would think highly classified information. That would leave it up to IR missiles, or guns. I understand the F-35 will be getting laser defenses to burn out IR seekers. Anyone know anything about those developments?

Raptors might only be able to find each other WVR, but chances are the Lightnings will be able to send AMRAAMs after Raptors from farther out than that. Granted, we don't know how close the the F-35 would have to get the AMRAAM to the F-22 before it is able to lock on to it, but it will be able to direct the AMRAAM in fairly close via its infrared cameras.

tincansailor · by **tincansailor** » 28 Oct 2016, 07:00

count_to_10 wrote:
tincansailor wrote:I haven't heard anything ether, but I would be surprised if the outcome was any different. The central factor in 4th vs 5th generation BVR combat is that the 4th generation fighter just can't detect the 5th generation fighter. The APG-79 Radar is apparently an excellent AESA radar, but it has the same problem any of the AESA radar on the F-15C has. They just don't find the F-35 until you already have a simulated AMRAAM in your face.

I'd be interested to know if the APG-77 on the F-22 can find the Lightning II at a useful range. From what I've read Raptors can't find each other until their well within AMRAAM range. If that's the case then Raptors or Ligntnings could only fight each other WVR. The big question would be can you even get a good radar lock for an ARHM shot, or even a SARH missile shot, at all but the shortest ranges.

That would be I would think highly classified information. That would leave it up to IR missiles, or guns. I understand the F-35 will be getting laser defenses to burn out IR seekers. Anyone know anything about those developments?

Raptors might only be able to find each other WVR, but chances are the Lightnings will be able to send AMRAAMs after Raptors from farther out than that. Granted, we don't know how close the the F-35 would have to get the AMRAAM to the F-22 before it is able to lock on to it, but it will be able to direct the AMRAAM in fairly close via its infrared cameras.

Good points. I just did some checking on Wikipedia and the note on the APG-81 said it has detected, and jammed even the APG-77 LIP Radar. If that's the case an F-35 could lock on to the F-22 emissions, jam them, direct a narrow beam in that direction and get a good enough contact to fire an AMRAAM? Then the question would be can the F-22 do the same thing to the F-35? In which case they could stalk each other. I think this discussion has already taken place in another thread.

After my post I remembered reading about an F/A-18G getting a kill on an F-22. It was discussed on this board a few years ago. It seems it did happen but we don't know the circumstances of the kill. Most of the posters seemed pretty dismissive of the event calling it a fluke.

aw2007 · by **aw2007** » 28 Oct 2016, 16:42

I remember reading APG-81 being able to jam Raptor's radar, I believe, in 2010. So the version that was jammed was probably the original set , rather than the V1. Keep in mind that V1 also has EA capabilities. It remains to be seen if the IR sensors of the F-35 can detect and track the raptor at a useful range for an AMRAAM launch.

SpudmanWP · by **SpudmanWP** » 28 Oct 2016, 16:52

Any mention of the F-22 (APG-77) being jammed being jammed by the APG-81 has to be taken with a healthy pinch of salt since the mode that the APG-77 was running was not known.

neptune · by **neptune** » 28 Oct 2016, 17:16

To ask my original question a bit differently; the Corp has tested their Block 3I Bee with success against their best SAM sites and opposing air forces, why not the Navy?

The USAF has successfully tested their F-35 Block 3I against their best F-15/ 16s tactics.

The F-35 Sea Block 3I has been tested on the flight/ hangar decks and Top Gun is preparing for it's future tactics, why is it not being tested now against Aegis and the LO SBug?

The USAF and the Corp appear to be testing their F-35s against their current best equipment and tactics, why not the Canoe Club?

:wink:

SpudmanWP · by **SpudmanWP** » 28 Oct 2016, 17:18

The navy is waiting for 3F to declare IOC so they are likely waiting for 3F to do any serious OT.

geforcerfx · by **geforcerfx** » 29 Oct 2016, 05:16

neptune wrote:To ask my original question a bit differently; the Corp has tested their Block 3I Bee with success against their best SAM sites and opposing air forces, why not the Navy?

The USAF has successfully tested their F-35 Block 3I against their best F-15/ 16s tactics.

The F-35 Sea Block 3I has been tested on the flight/ hangar decks and Top Gun is preparing for it's future tactics, why is it not being tested now against Aegis and the LO SBug?

The USAF and the Corp appear to be testing their F-35s against their current best equipment and tactics, why not the Canoe Club?

Navy doesn't have to counter the perceived negatives as bad? What I mean is the F-16 and F-15 are known to be very good machines that are being replaced by a unknown/unproven asset(as the 16 and 15 against the F-4). The air force was having to do what they did with the 1 raptor took on 6 eagles and won campaign, they have to show the money is being spent on a more capable platform. If the F-35C was replacing the Tomcat it would prob be having to go through the same thing, but the bug and super bug don't seem to have the fan fare the 14,15,&16 have/ had, and the Super Bug is still getting over all the crap it got back in the early days when replacing the F-14. Also the F-35 is more of a side project for the navy it would seem, they have/ had a lot of major large (expensive) projects going on, and they tend to have more media focus on those (Ford and Zumwalt), just me perspective on it.

popcorn · by **popcorn** » 29 Oct 2016, 05:47

SpudmanWP wrote:The navy is waiting for 3F to declare IOC so they are likely waiting for 3F to do any serious OT.

This. In the audio recording of the 2016 AFA Conference it was mentioned that the Navy will follow the AF's lead and set up a F-35C Integration Office headed by a 2-star. Plenty of time to abuse the SH in the lead up to IOC. :devil:

mrigdon · by **mrigdon** » 29 Oct 2016, 06:24

A lot of the focus for Marine air is CAS, which is a bit different then what Super Hornets are used in most cases. With only one squadron and limited training time, I wonder if the Marines just don't see a pressing need to go up against Navy jets in an exercise that doesn't involve their primary mission.

They have sent F-35Bs to Red Flag where they performed a variety of missions.

http://www.marines.mil/News/News-Displa ... irst-time/

I'm sure that going up against F-22s and other Air Force assets was a more challenging exercise than facing off against Super Hornets.

mk82 · by **mk82** » 29 Oct 2016, 08:06

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe VMFA 121's F35Bs hammered F/A 18 aggressors (like Raptors :mrgreen:

) hard during their operational tests pre IOC last year.

XanderCrews · by **XanderCrews** » 29 Oct 2016, 14:40

neptune wrote:To ask my original question a bit differently; the Corp has tested their Block 3I Bee with success against their best SAM sites and opposing air forces, why not the Navy?

The USAF has successfully tested their F-35 Block 3I against their best F-15/ 16s tactics.

The F-35 Sea Block 3I has been tested on the flight/ hangar decks and Top Gun is preparing for it's future tactics, why is it not being tested now against Aegis and the LO SBug?

The USAF and the Corp appear to be testing their F-35s against their current best equipment and tactics, why not the Canoe Club?

The Navy has the smallest amount of F-35s. They are still building up

nathan77 · by **nathan77** » 31 Oct 2016, 02:49

mk82 wrote:Correct me if I am wrong but I believe VMFA 121's F35Bs hammered F/A 18 aggressors (like Raptors ) hard during their operational tests pre IOC last year.

I think this was when 4 F-35B's took out 9 attackers pre-IOC for the Marines.
There was wide speculation the 9 attackers were Marine Hornets (given their Fighter Attack Training Squadrons are all Hornets). It's never been confirmed however.

Corsair1963 · by **Corsair1963** » 31 Oct 2016, 07:32

nathan77 wrote:
mk82 wrote:Correct me if I am wrong but I believe VMFA 121's F35Bs hammered F/A 18 aggressors (like Raptors ) hard during their operational tests pre IOC last year.

I think this was when 4 F-35B's took out 9 attackers pre-IOC for the Marines.
There was wide speculation the 9 attackers were Marine Hornets (given their Fighter Attack Training Squadrons are all Hornets). It's never been confirmed however.

I thought it was nine F-16's???