F-35 versus Typhoon

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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charlielima223

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Unread post02 Oct 2016, 12:04

franciwzm wrote:
Not really: typhoon pilots says that in 2006 at langley in 1 vs 1 scenario they constantly detect f22 at 40km, up to 80km; this is a 1vs 1 scenario with old captor;that translates in a real world rcs of not less then 0,016, that is still very very low; in a 2 vs 2 scenario detection ranges are obviously much more consistent; new e-caesar projectist says that is phisically impossible that new aesa gonna detect f35 any shorter then 72km, that translates in much more in real worl...But obviosuly we are speaking about best mechanical radar in air to airt an best aesa ....( 8-10% more range then apg 77 and 200 degrees repositioning capability)...You should also remember thta european missiles are more advanced: iris-t is certified to destroy even small angd more agile wvr missiles, and it is more a defensive weapon on typhoon then an offensive one. In recent trilateral f22 pilots simply admitted to be astonished by typhoon agility in supersonic regime...Official declaration...May be you dont kknow that sustainedd turn rate in supersonic regime is better for typhoon the f22... (g6,4 at mach 1,6)


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Possible fanboy contact detected... :lol:
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les_paul59

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Unread post02 Oct 2016, 13:27

franciwzm, I don't wanna call your comment bullsh*t but a claim like that needs to be backed up by sources.

I will concede that in wvr combat between a typhoon and raptor it is a toss up because the typhoon has great kinematics but I have never heard of any typhoon pilot talk about besting the raptor in bvr, let alone detecting it at any useable range.
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mk82

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Unread post02 Oct 2016, 16:13

Hornetfinn: " Typhoon has met F-22 in combat and Typhoon pilots say that they were never able to get within 20 miles before being targeted even if they did everything right"

That says it all. Just ask any Luftwaffe Eurofighter pilot who flew against the F22 from BVR (i.e. realistic) distances in recent exercises.....they all conceded that the F22 was superior/da king in that arena (BVR).

Indian Air Force SU 30 MKI pilots weren't particularly overwhelmed by RAF Eurofighters and I believe French Air Force Rafales achieved lopsided kill to loss ratios against RAF Eurofighters in an exercise held in the Canary Islands (I believe). The Eurofighter, though impressive in many respects, is not automatically some European Uber Wunderwaffe......the skill/quality of the pilot makes a lot difference naturally (frankly the most important factor in air combat). At end of the day, if the Eurofighter can smash Suckhoys/MIGs flown by scumbags and network well enough with 5th generation platforms to facilitate deadly cooperative/Wolfpack tactics...that's a big thumbs up for me :mrgreen: .
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franciwzm

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Unread post02 Oct 2016, 19:55

basher54321 wrote:
franciwzm wrote:
Not really: typhoon pilots says that in 2006 at langley in 1 vs 1 scenario they constantly detect f22 at 40km, up to 80km; this is a 1vs 1 scenario with old captor;


Which pilots? what source?
What was the F-22 config? - 2 x drop tanks and a Luneburg lens?

franciwzm wrote:Official declaration...May be you don't know that sustained turn rate in supersonic regime is better for typhoon the f22... (g6,4 at mach 1,6)


According to who? please provide the source.



Not really: tha day after raptor pilots did not want to play anymore...No luneburg at all...Can you understand thta theorical 0,0001 rcs is just for 1000%1000 allineation ? it is not difficult..For sam reason in a 2vs 2 scenario detection range is much more then ina 1vs 1 scenario...Why must i poost the link for a 10 years old story thta has been commented thousands of times and made top secret by american autorities 10 years ago? you probably have no knoledge on thi issues..
ANYWAY official source and 2006 images about this secret encounter with german typhoon (that were only batch 4 with neither irst operative and not much ecm active yet) is by international AIR POWER REVIEW" - year 2006, issue 20, page 45.


internatinal AIR POWER REVIEW" - year 2006, issue 20, page 45..It has been comment hundreds of times even on this platform 10 years ago...How old are you ? 18 ?

Look at original pictures here http://eucitizens.eu/Forum/index.php?topic=166.0
The day after raptor pilots did not want to play anymore...Anyway this does not mean that raptor has still important advantages in bvr, but in a 4 vs 4 scenario with new aesa ( 8-10% more range then apg77 and 200 degreees reposiitong capability) and meteor high chances that all fighters get shoot down...( I mean in bvr )
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botsing

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Unread post02 Oct 2016, 20:04

franciwzm wrote:Why must i poost the link for a 10 years old story thta has been commented thousands of times and made top secret by american autorities 10 years ago? you probably have no knoledge on thi issues..

Do we really need to take this serious?

p.s. Your spelling makes you sound like a drunk, work on it please.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post02 Oct 2016, 20:34

botsing wrote:
franciwzm wrote:Why must i poost the link for a 10 years old story thta has been commented thousands of times and made top secret by american autorities 10 years ago? you probably have no knoledge on thi issues..

Do we really need to take this serious?

p.s. Your spelling makes you sound like a drunk, work on it please.



http://i.imgur.com/FdClufZ.jpg

Reminds me of Marin Crops lol

Also loled at "made Top secret" really? After the article was written and openly shared on the source you showed us? Bold strategy.

Don't know enough about the details (which would indeed be classified) assuming Luneberg lense was active and then CAPTOR vectored on it.

In real life F-22s are hanging out at 50,000 ft and operating with impunity. The only way a typhoon gets them is if they descend, make themselves seen and then decide to dogfight. Everytime anyone trains against F-22s, F-22s have to slow down and not do what they would actually do in order to get any training done. Or else F-22s would simply dominate.
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basher54321

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Unread post02 Oct 2016, 21:20

franciwzm wrote:Not really: tha day after raptor pilots did not want to play anymore...



:doh:

Thanks - I guess that means we can totally ignore everything else you write then - hope you can sober up some day.
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eloise

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Unread post02 Oct 2016, 21:36

franciwzm wrote:internatinal AIR POWER REVIEW" - year 2006, issue 20, page 45..It has been comment hundreds of times even on this platform 10 years ago...How old are you ? 18 ?
Look at original pictures here http://eucitizens.eu/Forum/index.php?topic=166.0
The day after raptor pilots did not want to play anymore...Anyway this does not mean that raptor has still important advantages in bvr,

You know what , i saw people dragging this over many forums before ,everyone said it came from AIR POWER REVIEW with exact detail as you cited but no one can actually post the photos of the page where they found it , all they can do is link to the exact forum that you just cited , but none can post the photo of the page in the magazine , why is that ? . Is it really because the incident was made top secret suddenly or because people made things up ?

Secondly, an air exercise is not the same as a game you playing with your friends , pilots don't have the option to be like " nah i lost so i dont want to play anymore" , that not how military work. Try that sh*t and you will be kicked out immediately

Thirdly, aircraft don't have the same RCS from all aspect , RCS value varied with aspect angle. For example : below are some computer-simulated radar scattering graph of XB-70 , Su-27 , C-29 , F-35 (it cant be 100% accurate because they cant take RAM into account ). But do you see how much RCS changed with aspect angle ? , even if Typhoon did detect F-22 from long distance , how do you know it is not from the aspect where F-22 has the highest RCS ? what if the Typhoon look at F-22 from behind or from the beam aspect ?
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Last but not least, you want to talk about real world situation , if we are to talk about real world situation then there must be jamming , once you factor in jamming. How on earth can Typhoon even compete with F-22 ?
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https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavion ... press.com/
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eloise

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Unread post02 Oct 2016, 21:58

franciwzm wrote:
Not really: typhoon pilots says that in 2006 at langley in 1 vs 1 scenario they constantly detect f22 at 40km, up to 80km; this is a 1vs 1 scenario with old captor;that translates in a real world rcs of not less then 0,016, that is still very very low; in a 2 vs 2 scenario detection ranges are obviously much more consistent; new e-caesar projectist says that is phisically impossible that new aesa gonna detect f35 any shorter then 72km, that translates in much more in real worl..

Not to burst your bubble but even if what you said is true ( which it isn't ) detection range and tracking is still far from the same thing.Not to mention effect of jamming
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garrya

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Unread post02 Oct 2016, 22:03

Franciwn grammar and spelling reminded me of that blackadam guy in Keypub.
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les_paul59

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Unread post02 Oct 2016, 22:44

The raptor is in a class of it's own in bvr combat, end period stop. Those are just the facts, what's going to be scary is when it can fly with f-35's feeding them information. In a real world scenario they might never have to emit anything, just get the info from the f-35 and lob amramms like ghosts.
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charlielima223

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Unread post03 Oct 2016, 04:34

les_paul59 wrote:The raptor is in a class of it's own in bvr combat, end period stop. Those are just the facts, what's going to be scary is when it can fly with f-35's feeding them information. In a real world scenario they might never have to emit anything, just get the info from the f-35 and lob amramms like ghosts.


In exercises the only time the designated aggressor aircraft ever came close to the Raptor was because it had to be initially set up that way from the start. I've talked to Aggressor Pilots at Nellis AFB open house events in the past, flat out tell me they can't even get within WVR of the Raptor before getting shot at. They don't know they were shot at or shot down by a Raptor until the control personnel tells them that they are out of the game.

https://theaviationist.com/2012/12/10/viper-dogfight/

However, the toughest of the fighter jet to face in aerial combat, at least if you are seated in an F-16, is the F-22 Raptor: “It’s not a matter of trying to kill him, but to see how long you can survive!” as “Rico” says in “Viper Force: 56th Fighter Wing–To Fly and Fight the F-16” book by Lt. Col. Robert “Cricket” Renner USAF (Ret.)


No doubt F-35s and F-22s in the same airspace would be a very potent "hunter-killer" team.

Back to F-35 Typhoon phallic measuring...

If the F-35 kinematics is indeed somewhere between a Viper or Hornet I would think even the Typhoon would have to give the Lightning its due respect.

quoting the same link...

And how can the Viper perform against the Eurofighter Typhoon?

During more or less a decade of service with the Italian Air Force, the F-16 has been extensively used to train Typhoon pilots in WVR engagements. According to the Italian pilots, the F-16 matches the F-2000 under 10,000 feet. But above FL100 the Typhoon becomes quite difficult to beat since its superior aerodynamics give the Eurofighter can out maneuver the Viper at every engagement


Than again this is if the Typhoon could even get close enough to the F-35 to begin with. If current aircraft are having a close to zero chance of getting close to a Raptor, how could they get close to the F-35 that is reportedly more stealthy than the Raptor and has better passive detection and sensor fusion?
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franciwzm

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Unread post03 Oct 2016, 08:42

Anyone wants to criticize assumption that in a 2vs 2 or 4vs 4 scenario stealth aircraft gonna be detected at much longer distances ?

Anyone wanna criticize that old captor detection range figures are better of all but apg77 ? So why you refuse as sci-fi that captor has been able to constantly detect f22 at 40km and up to 80km in one case 10 years ago ? is it a personal offense ?
Why do you enjoy getting personal and offend me? Are you 15 ?

I provided link, and datas has been officially put to sleep for security issues...Nevertheless that encounter between f22 and typhoon was not official...Why do you like offending who provide (me) well known data? Just because you dont like it ? Keep dreaming about luneberg lens..Simply at langley they wanted to test f22 vs a capable opponent, but they did not take in consideration eurofighter pilots interviews with media...

Anyway captor can detect a 1 square meter target from 185-200km, and considering that in order to cut by half detection range you must reduce rcs 16 times (obviously considering 100%100 allienation that never gonna be to happen in real scenario especially in 2vs 2 or 4 vs4 ) it translates in real world rcs for F22 of 0,016 or more, which is stilll very very low.

I have written also that batch 4 typhoon use for exercise neither had first operative: typhoon irst os best ion the world by huge margin (double range that one used on su-35 despite being more compact) anc can detect an f16 size thermal signature 90km away..what about f22 thermal signature ?smaller then a fighter of its class, but for sure not smaller then an f16...
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optimist

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Unread post03 Oct 2016, 08:52

franciwzm, of course typhoon will rule the sky and kill the f-22 and other so-called 5th gen. But like your air force isn't buying 5th gen, my air force isn't buying the typhoon. Nothing either of us can do, except pis* into the wind.

but I think pictures would improve your posts. It would be good if you included pictures, see our plane in the cloud, looks good in the air

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Last edited by optimist on 03 Oct 2016, 10:36, edited 1 time in total.
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vanshilar

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Unread post03 Oct 2016, 09:05

The source quoted by the forum itself said that the Raptor pilots said they were unstealthed. That means Luneberg lens, or transponder, or some other method to ensure they were detectable.

Wasn't it directly from the mouth of Typhoon pilots that they couldn't even get within 20 miles of a Raptor even if they did everything right? Or is that also part of the supposed "hush hush" secret campaign?
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