F-35 Vs F-16CJ Vs Growler In SEAD

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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bayernfan

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Unread post08 Aug 2016, 19:39

edited. duplicate post.
Last edited by bayernfan on 09 Aug 2016, 01:57, edited 1 time in total.
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wrightwing

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Unread post08 Aug 2016, 20:58

str wrote:
jessmo111 wrote:3. Just how many Legacy planes versus the F-35 does it take to triangulate a system? does it depend on the threat?

Harm: Range (90 Miles 150 KM 80 NMI)
SDB: Range (60 NMI 110 KM)
Jdam Range ( 15 NMI 28KM)

The 4096 Missile used on the S-300 and S-400 reaches out to 250 Miles. bringing you well within the missiles NEZ.


40N6 headline range is only applicable to large, non maneuvering targets. Bombers, C3I, tankers and transports. They are not meant to engage fighter-like targets (the few images online show a large single stage missile with minimal control surfaces), and if they ever were, max range/NER would be half of that headline number. Probably less.


I'd be surprised if the range against maneuvering targets, was 1/3 of the marketing figure.
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Siesta

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Unread post09 Aug 2016, 01:58

"5. Numbers. There are probably already more F-35s flying than Growlers and F-16CJ combined. Of course in the future there will be way more F-35s and thus there will be way more of them over the battlefield at any given time."

Actually at this time there is only one operational combat ready F-35A squadron in the USAF with 2/3 of their full complement delivered. Less than 60 flying. Hill is scheduled to have two more F-35 squadrons followed by the ANG for the Vermont and then two squadrons at Eielson and then two squadrons at Lakenheath.

There are two SEAD tasked F-16CMs squadrons at Misawa, three at Shaw, one each at McEntire, Duluth, and Spangdleham. About 140 jets. There are about some 50 EA-18Gs spread among a dozen squadrons. So close to 200 SEAD/ECM jets. Itll be at this rate a couple or more years before F-35s surpass the current force.
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slapshot!

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Unread post09 Aug 2016, 02:03

USAF has over 200 block 50s, USN has over 100 EA18Gs.
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popcorn

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Unread post09 Aug 2016, 02:39

bojack_horseman wrote:
popcorn wrote:F-35 with purported internally mounted AARGM-ER, more bad news for the defense.


That very thing will be available in the form of the JSM (pending Australian funded research).
And of course the ER/Ramjet version of the existing AGM-88 should that ever come to be.

Raytheon could find themselves with access to 2 long range anti-radar missiles!

Yep JSM sill be a nice addition but aside from being supersonic, AARGM is optimized to the SEAD/DEAD role.

http://www.naval-technology.com/project ... ile-aargm/
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
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hornetfinn

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Unread post09 Aug 2016, 06:26

Siesta wrote:"5. Numbers. There are probably already more F-35s flying than Growlers and F-16CJ combined. Of course in the future there will be way more F-35s and thus there will be way more of them over the battlefield at any given time."

Actually at this time there is only one operational combat ready F-35A squadron in the USAF with 2/3 of their full complement delivered. Less than 60 flying. Hill is scheduled to have two more F-35 squadrons followed by the ANG for the Vermont and then two squadrons at Eielson and then two squadrons at Lakenheath.

There are two SEAD tasked F-16CMs squadrons at Misawa, three at Shaw, one each at McEntire, Duluth, and Spangdleham. About 140 jets. There are about some 50 EA-18Gs spread among a dozen squadrons. So close to 200 SEAD/ECM jets. Itll be at this rate a couple or more years before F-35s surpass the current force.


Sure there are currently more operational SEAD F-16s and EA-18Gs but I said "flying". It might well be that even that was slight exaggeration, but not by much. Of course some of those jets are for other countries than USA, but those are allied nations. Besides the point was that the number of even operational F-35s will quickly surpass the number of SEAD F-16s and EA-18Gs as there will be no special EW/SEAD/DEAD F-35 as they are all very capable of doing those missions. I'm not taking anything away from SEAD F-16s or Growler force. That is very impressive as it is. However, F-35 force will be enormous and capabilities will be very good for even EW/SEAD/DEAD that previously has required special equipment in dedicated aircraft.
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Siesta

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Unread post09 Aug 2016, 15:28

hornetfinn wrote:
Siesta wrote:"5. Numbers. There are probably already more F-35s flying than Growlers and F-16CJ combined. Of course in the future there will be way more F-35s and thus there will be way more of them over the battlefield at any given time."

Actually at this time there is only one operational combat ready F-35A squadron in the USAF with 2/3 of their full complement delivered. Less than 60 flying. Hill is scheduled to have two more F-35 squadrons followed by the ANG for the Vermont and then two squadrons at Eielson and then two squadrons at Lakenheath.

There are two SEAD tasked F-16CMs squadrons at Misawa, three at Shaw, one each at McEntire, Duluth, and Spangdleham. About 140 jets. There are about some 50 EA-18Gs spread among a dozen squadrons. So close to 200 SEAD/ECM jets. Itll be at this rate a couple or more years before F-35s surpass the current force.


Sure there are currently more operational SEAD F-16s and EA-18Gs but I said "flying". It might well be that even that was slight exaggeration, but not by much. Of course some of those jets are for other countries than USA, but those are allied nations. Besides the point was that the number of even operational F-35s will quickly surpass the number of SEAD F-16s and EA-18Gs as there will be no special EW/SEAD/DEAD F-35 as they are all very capable of doing those missions. I'm not taking anything away from SEAD F-16s or Growler force. That is very impressive as it is. However, F-35 force will be enormous and capabilities will be very good for even EW/SEAD/DEAD that previously has required special equipment in dedicated aircraft.


I totally agree as to the F-35s capabilities. Alot of people are still looking at future wars like we will be fighting the last one.
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Unread post09 Aug 2016, 18:55

slapshot! wrote:USAF has over 200 block 50s, USN has over 100 EA18Gs.

Not all Block 50 jets have the AN/ASQ-213 HARM Targeting System installed. Additionally, the F-16CJ is not nearly as good at SEAD jamming compared to the Growler, unless it involves a AGM-88 HARM doing the suppressing.

The F-35 won't have the software anytime soon to jam enemy radar, or actual HARMs carried on the jet, so the EA-18G will be the mainstay of that role. Although to be fair, the F-35 may not need radar jammers to go in and attack SAM sites.
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Unread post09 Aug 2016, 20:28

JUNE 2013 PDF of six pages attached with F-35 related excerpts below especially mentioning geo-location ability.
Aircraft Self-protection Against Sophistication
Jun 2013 Luca Peruzzi, Armada INTERNATIONAL

“...To cope with future EW requirements and overcome obsolescence issues, the US Naval Air Systems Command has recently awarded Lockheed Martin a contract covering the “redesign and qualification of replacement F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter EW system components”.

BAE Systems’ AN/ASQ-239 Barracuda system is derived from the F-22 Raptor’s AN/ALR-94 EW suite and provides
Electronic Support Measures (ESM) and high sensitivity electronic surveillance capabilities, full-spectrum situational awareness and multi-spectral missile countermeasures. According to certain sources, the Barracuda offers precise geolocation and targeting of potential hostile emitters, without the need for triangulation and thus other networked aircraft. The Barracuda is also integrated with Northrop Grumman’s Communications, Navigation and Intelligence (CNI) suite data links for real-time data sharing as well as the APG-81 AESA radar, which is reported to have RF surveillance and jamming, in addition to cyberwarfare capabilities.

The technology refresh program is reported to be connected to the hardware modules only and will not affect the countermeasures systems and antenna arrays.The enhancements are reported to be introduced with aircraft belonging to Low Rate Initial Production 7, based on Block 3 baseline software and capabilities. To be applied to all F-35 versions belonging to American and international customers, work is expected to be completed by March 2018....”

Source: http://armadainternational.com/assets/i ... ection.pdf (320Kb)
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Aircraft_Self-Protection.pdf
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Unread post09 Aug 2016, 20:32

neurotech wrote:
slapshot! wrote:USAF has over 200 block 50s, USN has over 100 EA18Gs.

Not all Block 50 jets have the AN/ASQ-213 HARM Targeting System installed. Additionally, the F-16CJ is not nearly as good at SEAD jamming compared to the Growler, unless it involves a AGM-88 HARM doing the suppressing.

The F-35 won't have the software anytime soon to jam enemy radar, or actual HARMs carried on the jet, so the EA-18G will be the mainstay of that role. Although to be fair, the F-35 may not need radar jammers to go in and attack SAM sites.


The F-16CJ is not a jammer. Its only jammer is for self protection ALQ-184 or 131. Hundred of Block 50/52 and Block 40/42 F-16 has gone through CCIP and thus they are suppose to be F-16CMs and are wired for the HTS left side pod. The difference you see is that Block 40/42 squadrons are still primarily strikers while the Block 50/52s emphasize SEAD along with being strikers. The latest HTS pods are now more advanced and used not just for targetting HARMs but as a precision threat receivers

The jamming missions for the Air Force has gone to the 390ECS which has USAF/USN crews manning EA-18G Growlers forming expeditionary squadrons. Youll see EA-18Gs working alot in conjunction with F-16s SEAD squadrons.
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Unread post11 Aug 2016, 11:01

This chart illustrates the value of stealth in not just precision. but once again the F-16CJ needs a lot more assets to get job done compared to the F-35.
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value of stealth.png
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Unread post11 Aug 2016, 18:23

Here is anspecific example.

Image
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Unread post12 Aug 2016, 04:05

Siesta wrote:
neurotech wrote:
slapshot! wrote:USAF has over 200 block 50s, USN has over 100 EA18Gs.

Not all Block 50 jets have the AN/ASQ-213 HARM Targeting System installed. Additionally, the F-16CJ is not nearly as good at SEAD jamming compared to the Growler, unless it involves a AGM-88 HARM doing the suppressing.

The F-35 won't have the software anytime soon to jam enemy radar, or actual HARMs carried on the jet, so the EA-18G will be the mainstay of that role. Although to be fair, the F-35 may not need radar jammers to go in and attack SAM sites.


The F-16CJ is not a jammer. Its only jammer is for self protection ALQ-184 or 131. Hundred of Block 50/52 and Block 40/42 F-16 has gone through CCIP and thus they are suppose to be F-16CMs and are wired for the HTS left side pod. The difference you see is that Block 40/42 squadrons are still primarily strikers while the Block 50/52s emphasize SEAD along with being strikers. The latest HTS pods are now more advanced and used not just for targetting HARMs but as a precision threat receivers

The jamming missions for the Air Force has gone to the 390ECS which has USAF/USN crews manning EA-18G Growlers forming expeditionary squadrons. Youll see EA-18Gs working alot in conjunction with F-16s SEAD squadrons.

I know the F-16CJ doesn't have a jammer, except for self protection. I was attempting to be be funny about the AGM-88 for jamming. Radar sources typically go kaboom when hit with a HARM.

The F-16s may be wired for HTS, but that doesn't mean the HTS actually fitted to a particular jet. The EA-18Gs work with a variety of different jets, and probably will fly along side the F-35 in near future.
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Unread post12 Aug 2016, 04:41

[quote="neurotech.... The EA-18Gs work with a variety of different jets, and probably will fly along side the F-35 in near future.[/quote]

..can you not imagine a scenario where the F-35 flys that mission without the EA-18Gs? If so, then why fly the Growler at all?
:wink:
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Unread post12 Aug 2016, 05:23

neptune wrote:
neurotech wrote:.... The EA-18Gs work with a variety of different jets, and probably will fly along side the F-35 in near future.


..can you not imagine a scenario where the F-35 flys that mission without the EA-18Gs? If so, then why fly the Growler at all?
:wink:

Nope. There ain't a back seat in the F-35, and I don't think they'd let me fly a single-seater. :wink:

I still think the F-35 will get Next Generation Jammer pod and not use the radar for jamming. There is a bunch of steps before the F-35 becomes an effective EA platform.
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