F-35 Vs F-16CJ Vs Growler In SEAD

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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jessmo111

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Unread post07 Aug 2016, 11:35

I know someplace on this board some part of this discussion has been beaten to death. If I'm rehashing old territory feel free to close the thread.

I noticed this today.

https://theaviationist.com/2016/08/02/e ... m-missile/


According to the Tailhook Association, Woody, leading a division of three EA-18G aircraft during the live-fire portion of Along with actively jamming enemy communications, the Growler, operating in a networked environment along with other two aircraft of the same type can use its EW pods to geo-locate a signal source and target it from stand-off distance with air-to-surface missiles.the US Navy’s graduate electronic warfare tactics course, HAVOC, became the first Aussie pilot to launch a HARM missile.

I also Read an article in the last few days on F-16s Cjs using multiple planes to triangulate A SAMS position.

This is compared to the F-35s sensors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzDke56vMiU

1. Why is it seldom if ever brought up, then that you need multiple F-16s and or Growlers to attack the same SAM (even a legacy sam) as 1 F-35.

2. Why is this never factored into the pricing model, when the GROWLER that the Australians bought and the F-35s are equal or near the same price?

3. Just how many Legacy planes versus the F-35 does it take to triangulate a system? does it depend on the threat?



Harm: Range (90 Miles 150 KM 80 NMI)
SDB: Range (60 NMI 110 KM)
Jdam Range ( 15 NMI 28KM)

The 4096 Missile used on the S-300 and S-400 reaches out to 250 Miles. bringing you well within the missiles NEZ.
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jessmo111

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Unread post07 Aug 2016, 11:49

F-16 HTS pod info


point.

The system uses an integral GPS receiver, a digital receiver, and a new power supply and incorporate new software to enable users to pinpoint the location of hostile emitters using multi-ship techniques.

HARM Targeting PodThe pod is compatible with the latest currently fielded M3.4+ F-16 operational flight program (OFP) software. The same pod will enable pilots to utilize target location data and employ precision guided munitions to destroy hostile emitters once employed with the upcoming M4.2+ OFP release. HTS R7 will target HARM and other PGMs to destroy fixed and mobile enemy air defense elements. HTS R7 precision coordinates will be available to all Joint Forces via Link-16.

Raytheon received the contract for the development of R7 HTS in 2001 and delivered the first pod in September 2006. All current Air Force HTS pod inventory will be retrofitted to R7 over the next two years. HTS R7 will target HARM and other PGMs to destroy fixed and mobile enemy air defense elements. HTS R7 precision coordinates will be available to all Joint Forces via Link-16.


http://defense-update.com/products/h/HTS.htm
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Dragon029

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Unread post07 Aug 2016, 12:33

I don't know about the F-16CJ, but from what I've read previously, a Growler can do geolocation on its own; adding more jets just lets it do it more accurately (with the same going for the F-35).
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Unread post08 Aug 2016, 03:59

Bump. Does anyone know if Either plane can single ship geolocate?
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Unread post08 Aug 2016, 04:19

jessmo111 wrote:Bump. Does anyone know if Either plane can single ship geolocate?

A CJ driver who transitioned to F-35s stated a single F-35 can locate a threat faster and with greater accuracy than three CJs that are surrounding the threat can. That is a telling statement.
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Dragon029

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Unread post08 Aug 2016, 04:25

jessmo111 wrote:Bump. Does anyone know if Either plane can single ship geolocate?

The F-35 and Growler can, not sure about the F-16CJ.
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popcorn

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Unread post08 Aug 2016, 04:49

From Wiki :

A tactic used during Operation Desert Storm was known as "Here, kitty kitty", wherein one Weasel would get the attention of a SAM or anti-aircraft artillery site while other Weasels would then sneak up behind the site and destroy it.

No need for this tactic with the F-35 aparently. Kitty is road-kill and never saw the car coming.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post08 Aug 2016, 08:41

F-35 has several advantages compared to 4th gen aircraft for SEAD/DEAD/EW missions.

1. It is VLO aircraft and can thus get much closer to threat systems without being in danger. Shorter range makes it easier to geolocate and also kill threat systems quickly.

2. It has several sensors that can be used for locating, classifying and ID'ing targets multi-spectrally and those sensors are fully integrated with sensor fusion. EOTS, EODAS, AN/ASQ-239 and AN/APG-81 are all great sensors in their own right and with fusion the whole system can deliver Situational Awareness which is much more complete and accurate than with only single sensor system, no matter how great they are. For example F-16CJ or Growler would likely be unaware if enemy threat system uses EO/thermal system to track targets and launched IR or laser guided missiles. Even radar beam riding systems like Panstir-S1 are very difficult to detect unless their surveillance radar is on due to narrow beam and low sidelobes along with low power levels. F-35 would detect the missile launch with EODAS and ID it using EOTS and geolocate it very quickly and accurately with EOTS and then engage the threat accordingly.

3. It has very good communications system in MADL with ability to share huge amount of data between aircraft and use that data for fusion process. Of course Growlers at least have TTNT data-link system but there is not nearly such sensor fusion ability as in F-35. Besides Growlers don't have similar sensor fit as F-35s in any case.

4. F-35 has better range and endurance than either Growler or F-16CJ. Due to VLO stealth it can also fly more optimal route and flight profile.

5. Numbers. There are probably already more F-35s flying than Growlers and F-16CJ combined. Of course in the future there will be way more F-35s and thus there will be way more of them over the battlefield at any given time.

With all of these combined, F-35 force will have much larger impact on combat than Growlers or F-16CJs. Of course they likely lack some capabilities at least initially that Growlers and maybe even F-16CJs currently have.
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Unread post08 Aug 2016, 12:50

"While the details of the F-35s radar-warning receivers (RWR) or threat-detection system are classified, pilots of both the F-16CJ and the F-35 aircraft rank the F-35 as superior. According to pilots, one F-35 jet can "locate, identify, and triangulate emitter locations faster and with greater precision" than multiple F-16CJs."

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-f-35 ... ion-2016-8

Today...with Block 3i.
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Unread post08 Aug 2016, 13:15

quicksilver wrote:"While the details of the F-35s radar-warning receivers (RWR) or threat-detection system are classified, pilots of both the F-16CJ and the F-35 aircraft rank the F-35 as superior. According to pilots, one F-35 jet can "locate, identify, and triangulate emitter locations faster and with greater precision" than multiple F-16CJs."

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-f-35 ... ion-2016-8

Today...with Block 3i.

That's what I was trying to cite, tough to do from a phone though.
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Unread post08 Aug 2016, 14:31

What people will come to realize is that the F-35 as built will do all the hard stuff that we had specialized fighter variants for and do it right out of the box across the whole fleet. Everyone gets hung up on this weapon or that system. But as they learn about F-35 capabilities we are going to see a huge change in weapons and weapon employment thinking as well. Already we know that the capability will exist for other F-35s to guide and target weapons launched by other aircraft. Given the interlinked communications I would guess you will get to a point where you can effectively tell the computers of a gaggle of F-35's to simply kill everything in a given area. They will talk to one another, optimize their kill chances and release the weapons without further input.

I expect to see this eventually even in the air to air realm. Especially as smaller missiles for expanded internal carry come into service. A squadron of F-35's WVR of one of SU-35's won't be turning and burning. It will simply hit the kill everything not squawking as a friendly in the area and the computers will starts shooting while they fly defensive.

There isn't even that much new about it. AEGIS shoots on its own already in certain modes. The processing power and comms are there to do it. No need in many situations to wait on the fleshy meat sacks to decide what to do.
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Unread post08 Aug 2016, 14:52

F-35 with purported internally mounted AARGM-ER, more bad news for the defense.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post08 Aug 2016, 15:32

popcorn wrote:F-35 with purported internally mounted AARGM-ER, more bad news for the defense.


That very thing will be available in the form of the JSM (pending Australian funded research).
And of course the ER/Ramjet version of the existing AGM-88 should that ever come to be.

Raytheon could find themselves with access to 2 long range anti-radar missiles!
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Unread post08 Aug 2016, 16:02

jessmo111 wrote:3. Just how many Legacy planes versus the F-35 does it take to triangulate a system? does it depend on the threat?

Harm: Range (90 Miles 150 KM 80 NMI)
SDB: Range (60 NMI 110 KM)
Jdam Range ( 15 NMI 28KM)

The 4096 Missile used on the S-300 and S-400 reaches out to 250 Miles. bringing you well within the missiles NEZ.


40N6 headline range is only applicable to large, non maneuvering targets. Bombers, C3I, tankers and transports. They are not meant to engage fighter-like targets (the few images online show a large single stage missile with minimal control surfaces), and if they ever were, max range/NER would be half of that headline number. Probably less.
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Unread post08 Aug 2016, 19:11

In this report:
http://www.heritage.org/research/report ... 143#_ftn10

The details of the F-35 threat-detection system or RWR are classified, but interviews of pilots who have flown both the F-16CJ and the F-35 state that a single F-35 has the ability to locate, identify, and triangulate emitter locations faster and with greater precision than can a flight of three F-16CJs that surround the emitter.


Hope it helps the discussion. Anyway F-35 seems to be an incredible multi-role fighter as more mission-like test has been done (or revealed).

........No idea why the post appeared several hours after I posted. It is duplicate to other posts now.
Last edited by bayernfan on 09 Aug 2016, 01:57, edited 1 time in total.
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